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ISABEL BAUDISH (IZZIE)

Hej everyone, Izzie here!

GREG DAVIES-JONES (GREG)

Along with Greg!

IZZIE 

Last week we started telling you the story of UNFCCC COP – that's the premier United Nations conference on climate change.

GREG

The next COP, COP29, kicks off on November 11 in Baku, Azerbaijan.

IZZIE 

We first published these episodes covering COP last year–

GREG

And we thought the time was apt to drop them into your feed again.

IZZIE 

A perfect moment to listen for the first time if you've just found us–

GREG

And still a perfect moment for a refresher if you listened last year.

IZZIE 

Now this is part 2 of the COP story. So make sure you listen to last week’s episode first if you haven’t already.

GREG

And listen on to part 2 now if you have. We'll have some hot takes on what to expect at COP29 waiting for you at the end.

IZZIE

So, enjoy listening to our past selves natter away and take you through the ins and outs of the COP.
[theme music fades in]

GREG 

You're listening to Climate Decoded, the podcast that deciphers climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. I’m your co-host, Greg Davies-Jones.

IZZIE

And I’m your other co-host, Isabel Baudish. 

[theme music fades out]

Welcome to part 2 of our story on the UN climate summit, COP – the conference of the parties – where countries meet annually to debate and decide the international agenda for addressing climate change.

GREG 

In part 1, we introduced the lay of the land at COP, deciphering the sea of acronyms, overviewing history, and placing the core concepts on the table. We left having just explored the role of the negotiators at COP.
IZZIE

But there is a lot more to COP than just negotiations, and a lot more people there than just negotiators. With contemporary COPs gaining more public attention, the proportion of these other groups is only increasing. So today we will be getting to know them: scientists, civil society, activists, lobbyists, journalists – the whole shebang.

GREG

And you'll remember from Part 1 that we explored COP through the lens of the high school experience – reimagining these corridors of global climate politics as the corridors of those tempestuous teenage years.

IZZIE

Something we are going to continue in this episode – so keep an ear out for more of our high brow cinematic references.

GREG

And last episode, we kept a close eye out for 'COP OUTs' – what we saw as fundamental problems within the COP process.

IZZIE

So stay tuned for more of those.

[sound of school bell ringing]

GREG

Well then. The school bell's ringing – it's time for another day at COP.

CHAPTER 1: CIVIL SOCIETY

RICHARD BETTS (on the ground at COP

Well, COP, I think, acts on many different levels. It can be effective in several of these. Its main purpose is the negotiations amongst the countries, the parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. That is its primary purpose, to try and drive forward international policy and get agreements on addressing climate change. But of course, it goes beyond that; we can't just leave it all to governments. Governments clearly play a role in leading the world, but it cannot be left to them, and the diplomacy by its nature takes a long time to actually do things. But COP can also be a focus for everyone else.

GREG
That was Richard Betts, the lead on climate change impacts at the UK Met office, shedding some light on what happens around the negotiations. So who exactly is the 'everyone else' that Richard is referring to?

IZZIE

Well, watching the negotiating parties battling it out on the field are many different groups sat up in the bleachers –

[sound of crowd at sporting match]

The theatre kids, the band geeks, the mathletes, the gamers, the bookish types, the popular kids, the skaters, even the stoners – you have all sorts. 

These are the observers. Observer organisation is an umbrella name for a whole plethora of groups that come to COP. It includes research institutes like universities and think tanks. It includes civil society, encompassing advocacy groups, Indigenous representatives, grassroot organisations and international NGOs. It includes youth activists. It includes business and industry representatives and trade unions. Today it even includes celebrity types like Leonardo di Caprio, or national treasure David Attenborough. Bringing the knowledge of these diverse groups to the COP is a key cornerstone of what goes on here.

GREG

Let's begin by talking with the researchers and civil society representatives. Their participation is important for a few key reasons.

IZZIE

Yes and we've broken these down into 4 things: transparency, knowledge sharing, inclusivity and strategising.

GREG

Firstly, transparency. Well, a large part of being an observer organisation is – as the name suggests – to observe. In essence, to closely follow the details of the negotiations, and report back to a watching world. Casting back to our high school – it's like the school board inviting student representatives to join their meetings. They might not hold much direct influence over the meeting, but they represent a larger population governed by the decisions. So it's vital that they are there. Tom Goldtooth, executive director from the Indigenous Environmental Network, sums it up effectively. 

TOM GOLDTOOTH (on the ground at COP)

Well, like in many of the Conference of the Parties of these UN negotiation meetings, it's very important for Native American Indigenous peoples to be here. We've always been an advocate that if we're not here at the dinner table, you know, we are the menu. Civil society needs to be here. There's been such a serious corporate takeover – money talks. And from our communities, whether it's Europe, here in Poland and in Sweden and Australia, people need to know what's going on.

IZZIE

This brings up our first COP OUT of the episode.

[ding sound]

It’s difficult to actually know what’s going on. Whilst observers should theoretically be able to watch any negotiations there are a number of caveats. For one, there are limited observer passes to the negotiations in the first place. For another, it only takes one country to request that the meeting be ‘closed’, and all observers are forced to leave the room.

And then on top of that, there's the informal decision making. Remember our jocks of the COP, the negotiators? Well, sometimes to break a deadlock, they will declare meetings as “informal–informal” – a scenario a bit like a team huddle on the side of the pitch, where discussions can take place informally, independent of the usual meeting format, and with restricted outsider access. 

Then on top of the informal informals, there are the off-record conversations that aren't even announced – imagine our highschool jocks chatting in the changing rooms or in the pitchside tunnel out of sight. It’s no surprise that this happens. Negotiators have been working on these issues for years – they are on first name terms, they have each other’s direct lines. If you’re lucky as an observer, you'll have a negotiator contact who can slip you tidbits from these meetings. But largely, for those in the stands, it’s anyone's guess as to what is going on behind the closed doors of COP.

Of course, closed and informal meetings could be argued as necessary to reach agreement on difficult points – some decision makers aren’t going to voice their thoughts in front of a camera and audience. But nonetheless, closing meetings do raise a question mark for transparency and highlight that observation is only really possible to a point.

GREG

Knowledge sharing is another benefit stemming from the participation of researchers and civil society members at COP. The COP brings thousands of specialists in different fields together. It’s like a massive science fair to share and promote the latest climate research. Imagine the most passionate high school science nerds across the world setting up a global annual science fair. And we mean that respectfully – we’re a nerdy bunch at Climate Decoded. Different researchers congregate with different aims. For example, technical science advisers formally convene at COP to provide the negotiating parties with relevant scientific and technical information and hence inform the negotiation texts.

IZZIE

Researchers also attend COP to join the thousands of panel events, workshops and exhibitions taking place. These events allow experts in different climate fields to disseminate their research, release papers, and share experiences. Researchers come from a multitude of different backgrounds, from glaciology to climate litigation, from sociology to carbon mitigation. The events they attend are equally diverse. There are really too many to count, spread out across the massive venue – you have to be very selective with what you try to cram into your daily COP schedule. 

[recording of side event plays]

GREG

Typically in panel events, both researchers and civil society convene to advocate and apply political pressure for stronger climate targets and policies. And sometimes this advocacy cuts through the noise, with civil society coming together in a real way to influence the narrative of a COP. Remember Jamie Henn, from part 1, Director of Fossil Free Media. Well he’s back with a good example of how this played out with the Paris Agreement’s 1.5 degree target.

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

And that begins to frame what matters. I think another great example of that is 1.5. You know, I've been in this process long enough to remember when that was a real fight, when the target was 2 degrees. We've been very involved over the years of working with our allies across the Pacific and vulnerable countries who really led that 1.5 to survive the fight of trying to put that target – and that was a target that within this process used to be completely dismissed. And it started on banners and at side events and at press conferences and at youth teach-ins and sit-ins. And then in Paris, there was enough political pressure and leverage to actually get it into the agreement for the first time. That triggered the IPCC report on 1.5 degrees that I would argue opened up a huge new era of public awareness on this issue. So again, you can trace that IPCC report and the discussion about 1.5 now back to side events and small actions and discussions here at COP. And so while these things feel sort of esoteric, or it feels like what does it really matter if you call it natural gas or fossil gas or whatever, it begins to have an effect and down the road, it can really be transformational in terms of policy.

[contemplative music plays]

GREG

Our next COP issue to untangle is inclusivity. And this brings up another COP OUT! 

[ding sound]

Many civil society representatives attend COP in order to counter the inclusivity issues that overshadow the process. In our COP highschool, there are far too many cliques who aren't allowed to sit at the popular kids table – and so civil society groups strive to correct these rules and this divide. Many observer organisations, particularly those championing climate justice and human rights, come to COP to bring marginalised perspectives to the foreground. The fact is, limited resources make attending a costly, far away COP challenging, but even once there, the language and the bureaucratic style of negotiations result in the exclusion of many voices from the narrative. Namitha Vivek from the NDC Partnership, explains this frustration.

NAMITHA VIVEK (on the ground at COP)

I feel one of the big problems that developing countries face is that the government, the mode of governance, is a very top-down approach. And there's not much sort of public new mobilisation and not much opportunity for, like, a bottom-up inclusivity as you see here. Having said that, local communities have so much nuanced knowledge about what's going on, in terms of land degradation changes. They're the first people to see, not to see changes. The only thing is, they don't have the language that we use to have this conversation here. They don't talk about resilience, or adaptation, they don't have key words that make them seem important enough to be a part of this table. And I feel reaching out and bridging and talking to them, involving local communities in this conversation – that's all we have. We don't have to fight for them. You know, we don't have to teach them. They have knowledge. They have the answers even. We just have to listen, we just have to include. 

IZZIE

It's hard to put into words how excluded some people will feel at the COP. Partly because it's not our story to tell – we are approaching this from a position of white, able-bodied privilege. Partly too, because the roots of this run deep. COP is not immune to racism, ableism, or sexism. As we touched on last episode, many of the COP internal dynamics reflect colonial power structures and injustices. So for someone still oppressed by these structures, COP can be a difficult place to be. As well as this, for those with different world views and cosmologies, relating to the current COP mandate – essentially negotiating how much we value nature – can be very alienating. Taily Terena, anthropologist and Indigenous activist from the Terena nation in Brazil, puts this better than we ever could.

TAILY TERENA (on the ground at COP)

When I came for the first time to COP I got like, oh my god, this is what you guys are discussing, a text? You know, like I thought you guys would discuss about the solutions, about the violence and real action, like really practical stuff. But I understand that this for you guys – like for us, in our world, in our cosmology, a paper doesn't show their reality. So the word 'negotiation', for me, has a really bad meaning, a bad meaning. Because, you know, we are talking about the future, we are talking about our lives. We are talking about our mother. We should not be negotiating anything. You know, like I bet if I ask those representatives of the government how much they would pay for their mother, they would not give a price, because there is no price for your mom, you know. So for me, we are really, like, far from reality of what we really need, but that's why I think it's really important, not only for me, but for Indigenous peoples to be present here, having their own voice. So we can address this issue from a different perspective.

IZZIE

Trying to address the exclusionary dimensions of the COP is crucial if climate justice is to be realised. observer organisations are at the forefront of this endeavour. To this end, a parallel 'People's Summit' in the same city and at the same time as COP is typically organisedl The aim is to create solidarity across different struggles and assemble an alternative, more inclusive space from which to mobilise. It's like an alternative school – there's the same basic syllabus, but a more inclusive and non-traditional approach to delivering the curriculum and hosting discussion. 

The People's Summit harnesses a climate justice lens as its modus operandi for addressing climate change. It’s an opportunity to bolster a growing grassroots collective and increase the pressure on governments to consider more ambitious climate action.

Alongside the summit, many local organisations arrange different spin off events – film screenings, open lectures, art exhibitions, etc. – all striving to include more voices in the climate conversation.

Greater COP inclusivity can start with making sure a space is wheelchair accessible or ensuring different language interpretations are available. And fundamentally, it’s about equal respect for all present. When it comes to climate justice, a crucial starting point is making sure that people on the frontlines of climate change are seen and heard and their experiences are acknowledged and elevated. This is particularly important as many frontline defenders take crucial time away from defending their lands and waters to share their stories. Alternative events like the People’s Summit seek to reflect these inclusivity principles in how they’re designed and delivered. 

[reflective music plays]

GREG

Our final aspect of why so many observer organisations come to COP is to strategise. Many use the COP as an international meeting point for different grassroot organisations to touch base on the 411 of the year gone by. Organisations with aligning priorities assemble into groups termed 'constituencies'. RINGO, for example, is the researcher constituency and YOUNGO is the youth constituency. They meet daily at COP to strategize – it's just like having highschool band practice before the big show.

IZZIE

Reverend Glen Chebon Kernell, United Methodist pastor, and of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, expresses the hope that these collaborations and networks bring:

CHEBON KERNELL (on the ground at COP)

I do know there have been a host of grassroots movements that have been here year after year for the past 25 gatherings and have cultivated this Indigenous caucus to help give us a platform to communicate with the worldwide community. It's a combination of several feelings, one of scepticism, of course, governments are going to say what they have to say for local media, for worldwide media. But it's also exciting to see the grassroots movements, that are of climate change work that is taking place across the world. Because at the end of the day, it's the people, it's the masses of communities in our local communities that are going to create the change that is necessary. And we actually see those movements taking place today.

IZZIE

Taily Terena reinforcing the importance of COP for creating solidarity and strategizing across different struggles:

TAILY TERENA (on the ground at COP)

I also see that this is the place that people like you, me and those people here can meet and to be aware that we are not alone. Because the world that we are facing right now, capitalism and et cetera, make us feel really alone. Like, if we are like, without perspective. So places like that, you can see, oh no, I'm not, I'm not alone fighting for our future. I'm not alone believing in that.

IZZIE

Lastly, we also wanted to point out that, of course, civil society is not a homogenous group – but nonetheless, the climate emergency is a binding force and encourages many to work hard to bridge siloes. Here's Tom Goldtooth again:

TOM GOLDTOOTH (on the ground at COP)

We need to have better ways of communicating. We need to organise ourselves to have constructive dialogue with the private sector, you know, with the unions, the workers, with government, butit has to be based upon justice and equity. And those are things that we will continue to advocate for here.

[reflective music plays]

CHAPTER 2: THE ACTIVISTS

[sounds of activists chanting]

IZZIE

These vocal breakouts are common all over COP. It's in these moments you feel the raw emotion and desperation experienced by those disillusioned with dawdling bureaucracy in the face of a rapidly changing climate. It's time for our next high school group. These are the rebels – but rebels with a cause. A group consistently pushing for faster climate action, challenging the power structures controlled by certain COP players, and spotlighting climate justice as central to the narrative. 

The irony of using a high school analogy here is that it is literally now the reality. Youth from the School Strike and Fridays for Future movements, spurred on by the efforts of leaders like Greta Thunberg and Vanessa Nakate have hurled climate activism out of the dimly lit corners and smack bang into the mainstream – bringing vast crowds with them.

GREG

Actions in activism take many different forms. An art exhibit portraying climate impacts on frontline communities. Chants and songs sung out across the venue. Staging a sit-in, where protestors occupy a place and refuse to leave until their voices are acknowledged – picture a sort of self-imposed detention. 

IZZIE

This isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination for Greg as he spent many a highschool afternoon involuntarily detained…

GREG

If only the reasons were so noble! But moving on. There’s even an art space usually set up near COP which supports actions with materials, imagination and artistic skills – this is a place for the creative kids to shine. And usually the most attended action is a public climate march convened in parallel with the COP. At COP 25 in Madrid we joined half a million people marching and singing through the city centre.

[sounds from the climate march play]

IZZIE

Perhaps the most iconic and recurring example of activism at the COP is the Fossil of the Day award – a satirical award given out by a well known civil society umbrella group: the Climate Action Network. The award is given to countries who are “doing the most to achieve the least”. Over the years, this award has built up a lot of attention and now people clamour and rush from all corners of COP at 6pm to hear the ceremony unfold. It has been both a high and lowlight for me collecting the award for Australia during past COPs. Here's a quick snippet from a Fossil of the Day award presentation.

[recording from Fossil of the Day action plays]

GREG

Despite the attention this and other actions receive, in reality, a lot of activists run into a number of different problems at COP. All actions have to be pre-approved, there are limitations on where and when actions can be held, and critically – rules on who can be named and shamed. If the rules for 'approved demonstrations' aren't followed, the threat of suspension or expulsion from the COP venue itself hangs over the heads of action organisers. It reminds me of when a group of highschool boys in Wales wore skirts to school to protest the ‘no shorts’ policy during a heatwave. Like in high school. You can protest, but the school principal may suspend you for the day or the week – the power is in their hands. This is another COP OUT. 

[ding sound]

Here’s Australian climate activist Daisy Jeffrey. 

DAISY JEFFREY (on the ground at COP)

I think the problem that we see is that we're given badges here as observers or delegates to come here, we're on the line. We get to demonstrate as civil society but only to a certain extent. But when it starts to, you know, make trouble for one government or another, they try to stop us. I think today that we were trying to award Fossil of the Day to the UNFCCC, say, and that they really didn't like that. So they tried to stop us from hosting this. But we had to actually cut them from the list so that we could hold it, which I think really speaks to us on the level of suppression of civil society's voice, and it's something that I wasn't necessarily – something I was surprised to see here at COP. But it's still really disappointing and also very concerning surrounding free speech.

IZZIE

At COP25 we saw this limitation on demonstrations happen in a pretty extreme way. 

[sounds of activists chanting fades in]

In the final days of the conference, hundreds of people, frustrated by failing talks, convened spontaneously but peacefully in the venue: staging a sit-in, refusing to leave. Security swooped in and things escalated fast. We were forcibly pushed out of the venue into a courtyard, a metal door descended, and just like that, two-hundred-odd civil society representatives were kettled and barred from re-entry for the rest of the day. 

[sounds of activists chanting fades out]

Physically pushing activists out of the COP was an all too real demonstration of who controls the game and who writes the rules at COP. 

GREG

There is a strong feeling of responsibility amongst different climate activists at COP. I spoke with Harjeet Singh, the head of global political strategy at the Climate Action Network, who we met in Part 1, about this.

HARJEET SINGH (on the ground at COP)

I think it's really important that all of us become much more aware of climate change, and what has caused climate change, what role our governments can play, and also what as individuals we can do, not only changing our habits and behaviour, but also how we put pressure on our own governments. Otherwise, our governments are very busy siding with the elite. So unless we wake up, unless we put pressure on our respective governments, this world is not going to change. So we also have a responsibility on our shoulders to keep the planet safe and thriving for future generations.

IZZIE

That said, even if you scream as loud as possible, it can feel like the ability to influence decision makers is fairly limited at the COPs. Most of the negotiation rooms are boxed away from action spaces, and as mentioned last episode, marching orders from government leaders are already issued by the time negotiators arrive at COP. Activism is equally needed on the home front. Jamie Henn elaborates:

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

I think that it's useful to be here. But I worry sometimes, especially for the young people who are coming into it that they sort of get awed by, "Wow, there's like all these diplomats and heads of state show up and they're all these fancy pavilions", and yada, yada, yada – but like, this is really an illusion. I mean, this is not where the power is. It's back in our capitals. In many ways, I often feel like it would be far more useful than all of us coming here, just skip COP, go sit in at like your parliament and like that would probably drive more action than running around here chasing after stories. So we need both. I mean, we need these venues. We need to use them. But we need to do more back at home.

GREG

But there is another piece of the puzzle that still makes COP such a big focal point for activists around the globe. A reason why, despite the risks and despite the lack of sway over COP decision-making, they don't stop protesting. And that has to do with the presence of our next COP clique – the media.

[reflective, upbeat music plays]

CHAPTER 3: THE MEDIA

[series of news clips about COP play]

IZZIE
The media at COP is something of a cross between a high-school reporter and an all-seeing, all-knowing gossip girl, armed with microphones, cameras and a rampaging Twitter feed. 

[sounds of camera clicking, phone notifications going off]

Journalists stand on the sidelines, skulking the corridors, covering everything in sight to document in the school yearbook. 

[background sounds of COP fade in]

GREG

Journalists from around the world converge at COP with two main agendas: A) bring attention to the fact the COP is even taking place, and B) distil and package the most important messages for publics back home.

[background sounds of COP fade out]

IZZIE

Every half hour, there is usually at least one press conference running at COP, with different representatives from our high school cliques taking their turn in front of the camera, providing their hot take on the negotiations. Press conferences are typically given by big observer organisations like the Climate Action Network or Friends of the Earth International but also by politicians and heads of state.

GREG 

Media attendees can range from large networks to literally a high-school reporter. But not all networks send journalists and will instead rely on daily press briefings: picking up the stories being broadcast from large international news groups such as Reuters or the BBC. Equally important is sifting through the erupting Twittersphere and other large social media platforms for the key hashtags and trends gaining traction.

I caught up with the director, Antonio Peñarrubia, from La 7, a regional public TV network in Spain. Antonio explains the responsibility his small network has in communicating climate change to communities in his region. 

ANTONIO PEÑARRUBIA (on the ground at COP)

We think that we must use the news and the programs of the TV – my TV is a public channel – for telling the people all these news that are not always comfortable to listen and to watch in TV. People, I think, prefer to watch TV for entertainment. And we think that the entertainment is very good, and very nice – I love the entertainment – but I think that we have a very big responsibility with the audience to tell all these little stories. From the biggest storms or the littlest storms, and the little problems for all our villages.

IZZIE

A number of the biggest broadcasting groups are shouldering this responsibility too. We spoke with Matt McGrath, the BBC environment correspondent, about engaging the wider public in the COP.

MATT MCGRATH (on the ground at COP)

I think there's been a big change in the last 12 months or so. There's a greater eagerness, I think for people, they want to engage more with the issue of climate change. They may not know the ins and outs of it, they may not know what the COP is and how it works. But they're eager, we can see that, we can feel that when we talk to people. There's a great hunger, if you like, for people to do something. And so I guess we're trying to write stories as the BBC, we're trying to promote stories as well that have a greater, you know, that explain the story carefully and in relatively simplest terms, and also to reflect the complexities of here. So it's kind of reflecting both things, both the overarching sense of the bigger picture – what's going on and what people are doing about it – but also kind of saying, well, relating it to your life, what can you do? 

IZZIE

As the COP relies on nations making domestic climate decisions – like emission reductions, financial pledges and adaptation measures – it’s vital that people back home hear about what is happening and hold their politicians to account when it comes to election day. This responsibility often lands in the hands of the media. Jamie Henn again:

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

Yeah, I mean, that's so key. The way we describe the crisis begins to set the playing field for political action. I think the last year has been a great example of that. I mean, full credit to the Fridays For Future movement and youth and Greta for really pushing this idea of a climate emergency. And now all of a sudden you see in the subway platform here at COP, some corporation in Spain saying, "Don't call it climate change, call it an emergency!" I'm like, oh my word, we've gone full circle, like we've already been absorbed into the, you know, discourse. We've been assimilated. But that stuff is important.

[upbeat, reflective music plays]

CHAPTER 4: THE LOBBYISTS

[sounds of cheerleaders chanting plays]

IZZIE

There is another group all together too present at the COP in whom, one could say, evil takes a new form. It’s questionable whether they should even go to this school. And they certainly should not hold the level of influence they currently have. This group are cheerleaders, but cheering for exactly the thing we don't want. Meet the lobbyists supporting continued reliance on fossil fuels, and advocating for them at the very summit designed to phase them out. Here's Taily Terena again.

TAILY TERENA (on the ground at COP)

As my elder Tom from the North says, like, this is not a COP. This is not Conference of the Parties. This is the Conference of the Polluters, because the ones that they let get inside are the companies that are responsible for the violence, the pollution, in our lands. It is not only our lands, because everybody are affected by that. It's not only Indigenous lands. They destroy everything that they see on the front of them.

GREG

This is the final COP clique we wanted to talk about. And, to be honest, much of their presence is a major COP OUT.

[ding sound]

IZZIE

Of course, it's natural that businesses from all marks of industry are interested to attend COP, particularly those connected to energy, transport and agriculture. In fact, for companies in these sectors, it’s too much of a business risk –

GREG

Or risky business!

IZZIE

– to not worry about climate change. And, on top of that, deep transformations in the private sector will be vital to meet climate goals. However, it is deeply troubling when those representing the corporate interests of oil, gas and coal industries make up such a significant presence at the COP. At COP27 in Sharm El-Sheik, 636 lobbyists from oil and gas companies were registered in attendance, their number dwarfing the size of nearly all national delegations. Seemingly, the limit to their number does not exist. They host events and press the various parties to protect their interests and preserve the idea of fossil fuels being part of the so called net-zero carbon future.

GREG

During COPs, it’s not been uncommon in the past for senior government officials to prioritise entertaining fossil fuel industry reps over discussions with climate-vulnerable nations, or to spot large sponsorship deals bankroll the COP. COP25 in Madrid, for example, was wrapped in the green branding of some of Spain's biggest polluters, such as Endesa and Iberdrola. It's like rich parents splashing the cash on building a new performing arts centre and then magically taking up the chairmanship of the board of governors. In addition, so-called public policy think tanks masking organised climate denial groups can be spotted in and around COP. These groups, such as the Heartland Institute, reject scientific consensus on climate change and aggressively promote pro-fossil fuels rhetoric.

IZZIE

At COP24, in Katowice, the Polish government, who were hosting the talks, went one step further into plain sight. They built a shrine to coal. 

[dramatic music plays]

GREG

Yep, a shrine. And not just a few piles of coal, but coal made into soap, coal stacked up in cages and even coal decorated jewellery – copious amounts of coal.

IZZIE

In a country, and particularly a region, where coal is a way of life, you can see the point that is being made: how do we give up our greatest economic resource and transition away from coal at the rate required.

GREG

A valid question, but to do it in this antagonistic manner leaves a sooty taste. Ultimately, Poland, like many countries across the belt of Europe is experiencing record-droughts, heavy floods and destructive wildfires. Continuing the burning of coal will only exacerbate such climate extremes. 

IZZIE

We saw a similar conflict of interest happen in the health industry. The World Health Organization realised that negotiating tobacco controls were going to be nigh impossible as long as tobacco lobbyists were involved. Sounds pretty obvious when you actually say it out loud. So they created a 'firewall' – essentially blocking the access between industry and public health officials to protect the integrity of policy making.

GREG

The same thing needs to happen at the COP. Until then the rules of the game at COP, and, ultimately, how we transition away from carbon intensive industries, are being rigged systemically by people who don't want the game to be played at all. The people who benefit from continued investment in oil and gas. But there are a number of groups that work hard to spotlight this glaring issue of conflict. 

IZZIE

Yes, and we need to point to the problem of creating dangerous false narratives, and stop companies trying to make natural gas happen. When natural gas is fossil gas – it’s not a clean climate solution! They point to the way the revolving door between industry and policy makers allows for the perpetuation of unproven at scale technologies like carbon capture and storage to be built into climate scenarios. We need to point to the fact that key COP documents over the years, explicitly don't mention ending reliance and extraction of fossil fuels or even mention the likes of coal, oil and gas. The movie Grease features more oil than the Paris Agreement – crazy, when keeping fossil fuels in the ground is the most sure way to cut emissions.

GREG

It’s pretty solid proof that lobbyists are critically detracting from the integrity of these climate agreements. And something has gotta give. The campaign to kick big polluters out of COP is constantly reminding everyone of this screen of pretence. Jamie Henn:

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

You know, a lot of what we're trying to do is really paint a picture for people – that climate change isn't just some problem that is caused by all of us through individual actions, but there are actual major industry players, the fossil fuel companies, that have known about this crisis for decades, misled the public, and actively tried to block progress. And that finally, it's time that we should start holding them accountable, and talk about what's really at the root of this crisis, which is getting off of coal, oil and gas.

IZZIE

Yeah, until we acknowledge this, the moniker for COP – 'a carefully organised procrastination' – will stand true. Daisy Jeffrey, our climate activist from Australia, sums up the frustration.

DAISY JEFFREY (on the ground at COP)

My general impression is that there's so much going on for so little action to be coming out of this. And I think, you know, that really comes out of lobbyists paying to get into these discussions. And they get put ahead. They get given a priority, their voice is given a priority over the people who are actually losing their lives. So the climate crisis, this I'm very disappointed with the UN. I'm very disappointed with everybody who's been involved in holding climate action. And people keep saying that COP26 is the year for action. And I think they probably said it at the COP24, that COP25 was the year for action, and now is the time for action. We don't have another year to you know, excuse my language, fuck around. 

[reflective music plays]

CHAPTER 5: LOOKING FORWARD

GREG

The end of one COP signals the preparation for the next COP to begin. It’s a process that’s been on repeat since COP 1, in Berlin in 1995. And since that first COP, the stakes have risen year on year in lockstep with rising fossil fuel emissions. So, what can we expect for COP29?

IZZIE

Well the priorities for COP29 set up by the Azerbaijan Presidency are based on two pillars – enhancing ambition and enabling action.

GREG

Pretty vague. What is more concretely on the table then? 

IZZIE

Many are calling COP29 the finance COP, as a hefty part of the agenda is slated for quantifying a new collective climate finance goal. The previous goal of USD$100 billion per year ran to 2023. This might sound a lot but it still fell WAY short of what was needed so negotiations plan to establish a more ambitious financial target moving forward. 

GREG

Revised 2035 plans to reduce emissions and adapt to climate impacts, which are called Nationally Determined Contributions, will be a focus in Baku. However, the deadline to submit those plans is early next year, after COP29. So it’s unclear how many countries will have their 2035 plans ready by COP29 – and without knowing those plans at the summit, it’s hard to know how on track we are globally to meet climate goals.

IZZIE

There will also be a new joint initiative to listen out for in Baku, called the Rio Trio. This will aim to coordinate efforts to address the entangled challenges of climate change, biodiversity loss, and desertification.

GREG

And there are several geopolitical shadows cast over COP29 – in particular the result of the 2024 United States Presidential election. The U.S. will go to the polls tomorrow. That’s just a week before COP29. At the time of this recording, we don’t know what the results will be yet. But by the time you’re listening, we might already know the result.

IZZIE

At COP22, Donald Trump's election and promise to leave the Paris Agreement hung like a dead weight over 2016 negotiations. I was there in Marrakech in the aftermath of the result, and people were breaking down in tears at the implications. Whether the USA remains in the Paris Agreement from 2025 onwards will have significant outcomes for international climate decision making.

[reflective music plays]

GREG
So here we are, once again on the verge of graduating from the COP. The final exams are fast approaching, and the results will be hugely significant in determining the path for the foreseeable future. But will we make the grade? Or will we be back resitting the year? Only time will tell, but perhaps the more purposeful question is: Should we keep faith with the COP? 

On the one hand we can say that the process of international consensus building is no easy task. Climate change is a complex, multifaceted deep rooted problem to tackle and that means there’s no simple approach. Right now it's the only high school of its size and scale. And it is the place where global climate agreements have been forged. A place where climate conversations can be sparked between the most diverse and sometimes opposing groups. Sure, some elements aren't perfect, but maybe that's just the nature of it.

IZZIE

For me, it's hard to not to end this episode with a '10 Things I Hate about COP' diatribe, cynical about COP just becoming a PR stunt caught up in its own technical jargon trying to make Excel sheets that sporadically count emissions. 

There are all the COP outs we've highlighted – from the inclusivity issues, the problematic power dynamics between different countries, to the influence of major polluters on the process. All these need to be resolved to keep hope in the COP process alive. The COP process needs to redirect its focus, to target ending fossil fuel extraction, address the intersections of climate with racism and patriarchy and human rights and with environmental violations head on. If the COP process does not address these structural injustices, then we can't expect it to deliver an outcome which is climate-just.

GREG

We should also zoom out and look at the bigger picture, to remind us that COP is not a one-stop-shop. It's a process belonging to an ecosystem of different climate governance approaches at regional, national and local levels. Therefore, we shouldn’t expect a single COP to be THE defining moment of all time. We should avoid being too tunnel visioned on some of the nitty gritty textual decisions and what they mean – they are significant, but they are not where climate action starts or stops. Climate action can start and stop in many different ways and at many different scales.

IZZIE

And as a further ray of hope, there are spaces and discussion forums – like the People's Summit – that demonstrate intersectional, inclusive, accessible spaces and how they could be scaled. 

GREG

So there you are. Take the grade sheet home. See how you balance up the maths. And as the news from COP filters in, make your judgement on whether we should stick with the COP process.

IZZIE

Either way, it doesn't look like we will be graduating from this place anytime soon. Climate change – and this strange high school in an air lock – will be happening for some time yet. 

[theme music fades in]

So thank you for joining us today. We look forward to being back in your ears soon.

GREG
Bye for now.

IZZIE
Bye! 

OUTRO

IZZIE

You’ve been listening to Climate Decoded. Climated Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Heledd Davies-Jones, Kim Kenny, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens Wendel-Hansen, Jamie Stark, Gracie Neher, Alex Teske and me, Isabel Baudish. To read the transcript and see the resources we mentioned in the episode, check out the link in the show notes. To keep up with the podcast, follow us on all the socials – we’re at climate_decoded on Instagram and X, and Climate Decoded Podcast on LinkedIn. To support the show, hit that follow button on your podcast platform of choice and drop us a rating or review. You can also donate to the podcast – every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. You can find the link to donate in the show notes. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about, talking about, and acting on climate change. Bye for now!

[theme music fades out]