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INTRO

ISABEL BAUDISH (IZZIE)

Hej everyone, Izzie here!

GREG DAVIES-JONES (GREG)

Along with Greg.

IZZIE 

Last year we brought you an in-depth look at what goes on at the UNFCCC COP. That's the premier United Nations conference on climate change

GREG

It's a bit of a mouthful, but essentially it is the massive annual climate get together for politicians, civil society, scientists and the like.

IZZIE 

The next COP, COP29, kicks off on November 11 in Baku, Azerbaijan.

GREG

So we thought the time was apt to drop this two part episode into your feed again.

IZZIE 

A perfect moment to listen for the first time if you've just found us –

GREG

And still a perfect moment for a refresher if you listened last year – we'll have some hot takes on what to expect at COP29 waiting for you at the end of part 2.

IZZIE 

So listen on to hear our past selves natter away and take you through the ins and outs of the COP.

[theme music plays]

IZZIE 

In a matter of days, the largest global climate event on the calendar begins. That event is the UNFCCC COP – that's the Conference of the Parties for the United Nations Framework for the Convention on Climate Change. The decisions made at COP affect us all. And today, we’re lifting the curtain on this mega meeting to see what it’s all about. 

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

To me, it feels like this weird combination of like being on the International Space Station and like in an airlock and like then being in this weird world of like this quasi-international space where people speak in acronyms to each other and it's completely confusing. And then also like a high school reunion or something because like, you know, you get to know people and you get to know both your friends who you work with, but also sort of your enemies who you like, stare down, like, ahh, that negotiator.

GREG 

That’s us chatting with Jamie Henn. Jamie is a prominent climate activist, director at Fossil Free Media and a co-founder of the well-known environmental movement 350.org.

JAMIE HENN (on the ground at COP)

It's very weird, like, the more you hang out here, the more dystopian it sort of begins to feel. It's like a weird Black Mirror episode at points.

IZZIE (on the ground at COP)

A high school in an airlock…

JAMIE HENN

Yeah, high school in an airlock, I guess.

GREG

That high school reunion in an airlock is the COP. For two weeks, negotiators crowd into rooms debating the fine print of international climate agreements. And whilst the political negotiations take centre stage, there’s a whole lot more happening. 

IZZIE 

COP is also a place for scientists to press for policies in keeping with the latest climate research. It's a place where NGOs and Activists line the conference corridors, calling out the top polluters and pushing for climate justice. It’s a space where businesses and industry watch on keenly. And circling the whole get together is the media, making notes, gathering quotes and beaming it all out to a watching world. 

GREG

This reunion, like no other time of the year, puts climate action in the spotlight.

[theme music plays]

GREG

You're listening to Climate Decoded, the podcast that deciphers climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. I’m your co-host, Greg Davies-Jones.

IZZIE 

I’m your other co-host, Isabel Baudish. And when we sat down to plan out some of the most important examples of climate change communication to discuss in this podcast, the climate COP was top of the list. 

GREG

Exactly. As far as climate change communications go, the COP is one of the biggest platforms there is. Getting stuck in the nitty gritty of its processes and outcomes – what works, what doesn't – seemed as good a place as any to start.

IZZIE 

Yeah, and on top of that, Greg and I have been to several COPs. We’ve gathered a lot of material and talked with all sorts of COP goers, from youth activists to former prime ministers. 

GREG

Across 2 episodes, we are going to deep dive into the COP. And inspired by this analogy of the high school reunion, we'll be telling this story through the lens of the high school experience. So together we'll be guiding you through this pubescent rollercoaster of a time and introducing you to the different groups of high school cliques at COP along the way.

IZZIE 

And we're also going to take a critical look at the 'school' rules that govern the COP. And how, all too often, these can lead to what we’re calling ‘COP OUTs’.

[ding noise]

GREG

These are fundamental problems within the COP. Problems that must be tackled to create a process that is fair, equitable and just. Because we, along with many others, believe that justice must be at the heart of climate action.

IZZIE 

Finally, mainly for my indulgence, I've managed to strongarm Greg into including multiple references to the great high school movie canon – bonus points for identifying all of them. 

So as we step through the COP, imagine it, if you will, through the lens of your clueless teenage eyes on your first overwhelming day at a new school.

CHAPTER 1: THE START OF COP

[background audio of David Attenborough speaking at COP fades in]

GREG

The nerves and rumbling trepidation of what’s about to unfold over two weeks at COP definitely has some comparisons to the way one might feel the night before starting at a new school. The scale of COP can daze and confuse even veterans of the process. I spoke to Glen Peters, Climatologist and Research Director at the International Centre for Climate Research in Norway. He was heading to dinner after a long day on the circuit at COP 25.

GREG (on the ground at COP)

Okay, Glen, because I know you got to go off and eat with your friends who are waiting over there very patiently. What's it feel like to be at a COP, for those people who have never been here?

GLEN PETERS (on the ground at COP)

Um, chaos? Massive? The first COP you go to – and it can depend, you know, if you go to a Paris-type COP, which was you know, when the Paris Agreement was adopted. Or the one after it, Marrakech or, you know, certain COPs are much bigger than others. And it can be – it is a sight to see, like the organisation is pretty amazing. But it's just a gigantic machinery. It's in a sense, mind boggling, you know, when you're been here a few times, you know, it tends to – you become immune to it in a sense. But you know, if you stand back and just think about the size of these things, they're huge.

[background audio of COP fades out]

IZZIE 

COPs happen all over the world, from the alleyways of Marrakesh to the boulevards of Paris, but somehow, the look of the buildings, the pop-up structures and sense of entering COP remains fairly consistent irrespective of the locations. But how did they start? Think you can manage to give us a brief history Greg?

GREG

Let's give it a go.

[sound of tape rewinding]

GREG

It all started in Brazil's largest seaside city. In the winter of 1992, a major United Nations conference called the Earth Summit was held in Rio De Janeiro. The world leaders who gathered wanted to agree on a plan to stabilise atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations to prevent what was described as dangerous human interference within the climate system. Rio was a big deal – it was the first time that so many nations came together to discuss the environment and development. To get a whole lot of countries to make a plan, a framework was needed. This led to the creation of something known as the UNFCCC.

[jaunty music plays]

IZZIE 

So – bear with me as we go on a bit of an acronym bender here. The UNFCCC stands for the United Nations Framework for the Convention on Climate Change. Modus operandi: to stop dangerous human interference with the climate. Convention is basically a fancy word for a treaty – that is, an agreement that places a legally binding obligation on those who have signed it. Those who have signed are called parties to the treaty, and they get to decide what the treaty looks like. To get a whole bunch of parties to decide, regular meetings are needed. These regular decision making meetings are called conferences of the parties – or COPs. There are currently 197 parties that are part of UNFCCC. COPs exist for other UN mandates – like biodiversity, for example – but today we are specifically talking about the climate COP. 

[news clips reporting on different COP play]

So Greg. Hit me with your best COP!

GREG

Well, some have been memorable for what happened, but more still for what didn't happen.

IZZIE 

Like that one time at bandcamp? 

GREG

Yeah, there have certainly been several COPs of note. Many of you might have heard of the Kyoto Protocol. Of the Copenhagen talks, the Glasgow Climate Pact, or the Paris Agreement. Well, these were all connected to COPs. 

[new clips reporting on COP21 in Paris plays]

And it was COP21 in Paris that delivered the crowning jewel of the UNFCCC process thus far. The Paris Agreement – a treaty that saw every nation pledging to keep a lid on emissions that would limit average global temperature rise to preferably 1.5 degrees and well below 2 degrees Celsius. But whilst there was an agreement, many argued it was heavily watered down.

IZZIE 

Yeah exactly – countries still got to choose how much they would reduce emissions by. And these reductions weren't sufficient to actually keep temperature rise under 1.5 or even 2 degrees. The Paris Agreement also avoided including a few high polluting industries. And when you dug into the agreement there were a lot of assumptions it relied on, like that we would be able to remove large amounts of greenhouse gases from the atmosphere and fast – an assumption a lot of scientists dispute. 

GREG

So now, let's rejoin where we left off – entering the doors of COP.

[sound of Greg and Izzie entering COP]

GREG

Arriving at COP and passing through security checks brings up our first COP OUT. 

[ding sound]

Remember, COP outs are superbad problems that we see with the COP. In this case, it’s that COP is not a house party that anyone can just show up to – it's invite only. 

[sound of arriving at a house party and not being allowed to enter]

To access many of the negotiations and events you need an accreditation also known as a 'badge'. And to get a badge you need a country, or an international agency, or an observer organisation, like a scientific body, NGO or university, to give you one. So these badges and the resources needed to travel to and stay at a COP can restrict whose voice is heard.

[sounds of badges being scanned while passing security]

IZZIE 

After accreditation scanning, it is into the labyrinthine venue itself. And it’s basically like one ginormous school cafeteria in terms of the range of people and things happening. 

[sounds of crowds at COP] 

Guiding you with what's happening where and when are maps lining the walls and screens slowly rolling through the daily schedule of 1001 events. To picture the COP, imagine an enclosed stadium subdivided into big UN style halls, fluorescent lighting that picks up every tired line on your face, thousands of people perpetually rushing somewhere, small side rooms with obscure numbering systems, pavilions hosted by different countries and organisations, endless corridors. It's the most convoluted, overwhelming high school cafeteria you can imagine, really, and there's this perpetual feeling of GO GO GO, be everywhere and do everything at once. 

GREG

Yeah, and panning around the high school cafeteria you see so many people connected to climate action in so many different ways. So it’s time to find out who all these characters are. Let's take a seat at our first table alongside the climate negotiators. 

[reflective music plays]

CHAPTER 2: THE NEGOTIATORS

IZZIE 

Well, if COP is a highschool, it's all eyes on the group that has just set out to the football field.

[sounds of a football match and crowd cheering plays]

The jocks of the COP – the political delegations and climate negotiation squads from the different countries – engage in multiple games of political football simultaneously. Across the venue, negotiators huddle over oversized tables and quibble over the construction of the sentences that build up to become the different agreements. 

GREG

It is these negotiations over texts that form the backbone of what the COP is about – they reflect the outcome of each COP and the commitments to addressing climate change moving forward. 

IZZIE 

In order to imagine what these negotiations are like, picture multiple meeting rooms with delegates seated around in a circle with their special country placard, taking it in turns to put forth their perspective. 

[sound of negotiators speaking]

There are lots of different negotiating groups meeting during COP. Each focuses on a different aspect of climate change, with different mandates and outcomes to work towards. You'll hear phrases like Article 6 or Article 2 or Article 12.8.5.1 clause b version 2 – all this technobabble – it basically refers to the specific parts of the climate agreements that are being debated. Groups of negotiators meet at least once or twice daily and are refereed by a chairperson, there to listen to all the suggestions, draft a text that takes them all into account, gavel through when there is agreement and blow the whistle if things become more heated. 

GREG

The COP negotiations have different focuses each time around. But essentially, they revolve around a few core concepts. And you’ll hear these continuously mentioned when climate change is discussed in different contexts. So listen in a little closer for a moment – it's time to play ‘explain that buzzword.’

[sound of countdown beeping]

GREG

First up, mitigation – go Iz. 

[reflective music fades in]

IZZIE 

Mitigation: Greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are causing climate change – so let's stop putting new stuff up there, and remove what we can. Essentially, this is stopping the problem at the source. Tell me about adaptation, Greg. 

GREG

Ok, so adaptation is dealing with the damage that has and will be done by climate change. In short, it’s managing the impacts. And lastly, Iz, loss and damage. 

IZZIE 

Right. Loss and damage explores how to support and compensate the communities and environments already bearing the cost of climate change induced disasters today. It's like insurance for what has already been lost and damaged by a changing climate.

GREG

Then underpinning these core concepts are more technical negotiations about what’s needed to deliver these objectives. Like, how to raise finance, what benefits technology and markets can provide – and how to manage the process in a way that is transparent and drives each country to be more ambitious. 

[reflective music fades out] 

So in summary – COP negotiations are about deciding how to collectively reduce atmospheric greenhouse gas levels – and adapt to the problems they will cause and have already caused. 

IZZIE 

But then Greg, I would say underpinning those technical questions are bigger overarching questions of justice and equity at the COP.

[percussive music fades in] 

You'll often hear talk of 'common but differentiated responsibility'. This means that all states are responsible for addressing climate change but not equally so. In essence, that some countries are in more of a climate debt than others. These countries are predominantly in the Global North, also referred to as developed nations. The Global North is responsible for more than 90% of excess greenhouse gas emissions. They have a long history of burning fossil fuels and contributing to the changing climate we see today. And a longer history still of exploiting other countries in the process. If this kind of behaviour was marked down on your school report card, you wouldn’t be coming back to class. To top it off – in the present day, Global North countries generally have more capacity to make swifter greenhouse gas emission reductions.

GREG

Yes, and couple that with the fact that countries in the Global South – also referred to as developing countries – are bearing the heavier brunt of climate impacts despite having emitted far less greenhouse gases than countries in the Global North. This is why a lot of the political action at COP is all about negotiating this balance of accountability. It's about determining how much more responsibility wealthier countries have to cut emissions, and to support impacted countries with finance and technology to deal with climate change. 

With a finite amount of carbon that can be emitted to keep average global temperature rise to within the critical thresholds outlined in the Paris Agreement – quick reminder, that was well below 2 and aiming for 1.5 degrees celsius – trying to calculate what a fair share for each country to emit is nominally scientific. But when trying to decide questions of historical rights and responsibility – and who has to pay, and by when – past and contemporary power dynamics are inescapable.

IZZIE 

This lands us at what are arguably the biggest questions of the COP: who is responsible for climate change, who is paying the price and how, if at all, can we rectify this. Because without fairness and equity being integral to the COP process, we won't have climate justice. And without addressing climate justice, we won't solve climate change. With more on this, here's Harjeet Singh, Head of Global Political Strategy at Climate Action Network International.

HARJEET SINGH (on the ground at COP)

So this process remains an anchor where we demand and can achieve climate justice. This issue is relevant from the point of view that there are a couple of developed countries whose emissions have caused the problem. So if we have to get global climate justice, this is the only place. This place is also useful on one hand and delivering justice by providing finance technology and capacity building support to developing countries, but also looking ahead and creating a vision for for this planet. From that perspective, it's important and then it gets connected to the national politics, and also national policy making process.

[reflective music plays] 

GREG

Now we know more about what types of decisions are made at COP, we need to find out how they're made. This can be a slow game for a number of reasons.

IZZIE 

COP decisions are made based on consensus – everyone has to agree. And as every party at COP is sovereign, no country can be forced to do anything they don't want to do. Plus, often when negotiators arrive at COP, they already have their marching orders from home. There are many many meetings that happen on the road to COP and by this point, negotiators know their bottom lines, and it's unlikely to be shifted very far in two weeks. In other words the game strategy is pre-decided – it's like the match result was fixed ahead of kick off. This is another challenge of the process, another COP OUT. 

[ding sound]

Here's Jamie Henn with more. 

JAMIE (on the ground at COP)

In many ways, the decisions have taken place already back in our home capitals and back in those media landscapes, and then negotiators are sent here to sort of work within a certain, you know, box. 

IZZIE (on the ground at COP)

On a leash?

JAMIE (on the ground at COP)

Yeah, on a leash, exactly, on a very short leash. And so our job is to, like, extend the leash all year, so that then they come here and are able to bark a little louder about certain things. 

GREG

But even if negotiators bark as loud as possible, it can still be all bark and no bite. This is because many of the COP outcomes are not legally binding. Rather than rules, they're more like guidelines. Countries can say they will reduce carbon emissions or pledge a certain amount of finance – but it is up to them to put these agreements into national legislation.

IZZIE 

And national legislation is determined by more than just climate. Our next COP OUT!

[ding sound]

The COP is filled with more rumours, more gossip and more scandal than Regina George's Burn Book. The present and past relationships between the different countries in attendance affect how decisions get made. These climate negotiations don't happen in a vacuum, even if the venue feels like one. Geopolitical relationships – be it trade tensions, or ongoing regional conflicts or travel bans in a pandemic – cast a long shadow going into each COP. We discussed this with Enele Sapoaga, former prime minister of Tuvalu and still a major champion for the climate.

ENELE SAPOAGA (on the ground at COP)

And now, of course, we have all sorts of geopolitical things coming into play. In the international engagement level, we have all sorts of policies being issued and complicating the whole thing. And we have trade wars. All these are complicating the focus on issues like climate change.

GREG

One typical way this geopolitical element plays out is seen when oil-rich nations stick together to protect their assets. Or the way a country that relies on another for development aid might be inclined to support their donor when a decision comes down to the line. There's a lot of ‘I'll scratch your back, if you'll scratch mine’.

[sounds of negotiators speaking at COP] 

IZZIE 

What you’ve just heard is a snippet from a COP negotiation session. Thankfully for you, that’s all we’re going to play. These sessions are vital to establish unified action on climate change. But they do tend to be long, drawn-out affairs due to the arduous and complex nature of drawing up international agreements. Ever tried to do a school group assignment with 196 other people? Trying to agree on what to write and how to write it with so many players at the table takes a loonnnng time. Everytime negotiators can't agree on text it gets put in brackets, and postponed. Here's Enele again on the frustration that accompanies this process.

ENELE SAPOAGA (on the ground at COP)

We keep on talking and talking and talking. But there is no action. Sometimes I wonder whether we need to have COPs at all, whether we should just stop having COPs conference of the parties, the more cops we have, the more people will say Okay, wait for another for the other COP wait for the other COP, whilst the small islands are being eroded into the sea.

[reflective music plays]

GREG

Of course, on the one hand, words can make all the difference in a text and the power it wields. I remember there was a moment at COP 24 when a high-level negotiation ran hours over time because the US, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Kuwait – countries not known for their progressive climate action – objected to including the word “welcoming" in a draft agreement intended to recognise a key report issued by the IPCC; the intergovernmental panel on climate change who are a leading body of climate scientists. Instead of “welcoming”, only the more lukewarm phrase “take note” could be agreed on. Consider the difference between a teacher welcoming you into the classroom, or just taking note that you've entered the room. The vibe is different. 

IZZIE 

I can also remember that debate running overtime into the Saturday when the big climate march was happening outside. And I felt really conflicted about it. I mean sure, we need strong wording, how can the best outcome for the climate be pursued otherwise. On the other hand when you have been captive in the venue for so long, sometimes you can't tell if a textual change is actually that meaningful or if you have just drunk the Kool-Aid. Largely though, it's hard not to feel frustrated when you are in a room late at night listening to a debate on a specific phrase AGAIN, and you are fully aware we are in the middle of a climate crisis with a ticking clock. As climate activist Greta Thunberg famously said –

GRETA THUNBERG (recording from Youth4Climate summit)

They've now had 30 years of blah, blah, blah, and where has that led us? 

IZZIE

Angelique Pouponneau, lawyer, negotiator and environmentalist from Seychelles delves deeper into the problems of language use at COP. 

ANGELIQUE POUPONNEAU (on the ground at COP)

Here the language is very much one that is overly politicised in my view. It appears to be issues of us versus them. And there is that narrative of sort of developed versus developing countries, whilst not appreciating the the tangible real impacts on human beings and the lives that that are being affected by climate change. To some extent, it always feels like in this space, we're having a fight over semantics, which is very important when you're an international policy maker and an international lawmaker – the fight on semantics – but it almost feels like the women the female farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa and their stories are being forgotten in this whole debate. When we're talking about climate change, it's about the real life impacts or what we can actually see and hear and feel when it comes to climate change.

[reflective music plays]

GREG

This 'us and them' that Angelique referred to is another COP OUT. 

[ding sound]

And it's one of the biggest failings of the negotiation set up. So how does this actually play out? Remember we mentioned how the COP by its history and its nature, divides Global North and Global South over their responsibility in the climate crisis and the impacts experienced as a result of it. Well, this divide and the associated power dynamics are on show even in the way the COP is designed. These dynamics are subtle; they are school rules that you won't find listed anywhere. But they are there, just as high school cliques can define where you sit and what you wear, these influence how the COP plays out. 

IZZIE 

To be specific, too often negotiations are determined by whose voice is more influential and whose voice has the resources to be loudest in the room. 

[sound of negotiator speaking, requesting microphone]

I remember one time during a meeting, the speaker from Marshall islands had to literally request a microphone. It was an accident, someone had counted wrong. But it drove the point home. Some nations will arrive with a huge negotiating party. At COP 27, the UAE registered 1073 delegates – Kyrgyzstan registered 1. At any given moment, there are 10, 20, 100 meetings happening, some official, some more informal, each focusing on a different piece of text. And then each text being negotiated can be 10, 20, 100 pages long. So is it possible for a small party to read all that and be in all those places at once? As if! Basically the odds are stacked – cast your mind to the jocks running around the football field 

[sounds of football match play]

Well, now imagine that it's like 30 negotiators on 3. And then, for those 3 on the pitch – meetings can go late into the night and start early the next day. In Katowice, I was tracking adaptation negotiations, just watching and note taking, fueled along on a diet of the daily free chocolate and apple handouts. And that was tiring for me – let alone how the negotiators would have felt. Because after those negotiations concluded, many of these smaller, less resourced parties jumped on a bus to travel 80 kilometres to neighbouring city Krakow, as accommodation options close to the conference were so limited. 

During the day, bigger parties had offices; smaller ones worked in the corridor. And if you are run off your feet or can't physically be in the room where it happens, it's yet another hit in trying to get your country's story out there and into the final decision text. And if it's not in the text, well it's hard to stimulate the climate action your country wants or moreover needs.

[reflective music plays]

That said, with a lack of alternatives, the COP still functions as one of the few places where making these kinds of vital decisions for the climate remains possible. So you just keep fighting like there is no tomorrow. Ronny Jumeau, tireless ambassador for climate change and small islands from the Republic of Seychelles spoke with us on why he and many others keep coming to COP.

RONNY JUMEAU (on the ground at COP)

What brings every island to COP 24, if there is one, if there's one global meeting we try not to miss, it's the COPs. And if we had money to go to just one meeting a year, it would be the COPs. Because it's critical to our survival. And in some, in some cases is critical to the physical existence of many of our islands. So we come, they're going to make a decision on climate change whether we're here or not. So we have to be here. We have no choice.

GREG

With that motivation in mind and their limited delegation sizes, this is why smaller parties form negotiation blocs, which are basically bigger teams comprising like-minded groups of countries. These blocs work together to push for certain negotiation outcomes or jointly present a specific point of view. AOSIS, for example, is the Alliance for Small Island States, and is made up of 39 island nations. You also have the LDC, or Least Developed Countries Bloc. These blocs usually meet early in the morning before negotiations kick off, debrief on the day before, consolidate position statements (assuming they as a group are in agreement), and they go out and repeat for the day. It's less divide and conquer the work, more divide and survive. It's these alliances, and seeing diverse countries support each other in a quest to collectively combat climate change, that sparks hope in the COP process. Here’s Enele with more.

ENELE SAPOAGA (on the ground at COP)

The Nordic countries, the African countries are working with us – the small islands. So I think there is mileage, I think we must congratulate ourselves. I mean, it's not perfect, but it is there, it is something that we should continue to put our faith on. And I don't share the view to give up this process. I think we need to continue regardless of how imperfect the process may be, it is the only credible process.

 IZZIE 

And it's on that note that we are going to leave you for this episode. Greg, what do you think, is the COP a credible process? Or is it just one massive COP out through and through?

GREG

Well, we've seen a number of elements that undermine the credibility of the COP and its ability to deliver climate justice – the fact that so much is already decided before it starts, the geopolitics, the discrepancies between access and the resources different delegations have. But so far we've mainly focused on one particular clique in our global climate high school. And I don't think you can really evaluate the COP without talking to the other groups who attend – the scientists, the activists, the lobbyists, the media – there is a lot more to this story. 

IZZIE 

Yeah, exactly, so in part 2 of this episode, we'll be meeting these groups and understanding what their role is at the COP. Our insider exploration of the COP high school reunion has just begun! So join us for part 2 and more behind the scenes at COP. 

[theme music fades in]

GREG

Thanks for listening, bye for now.

IZZIE 

Bye Bye. 

OUTRO

IZZIE 

You’ve been listening to Climate Decoded. Climated Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Heledd Davies-Jones, Chantal Cough-Schulze, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens Wendel-Hansen, Jamie Stark, Gracie Neher, Alex Teske and me, Isabel Baudish. To read the transcript and see the resources we mentioned in the episode, check out the link in the show notes. To keep up with the podcast, follow us on all the socials – we’re at climate_decoded on Instagram and X, and Climate Decoded Podcast on LinkedIn. To support the show, hit that follow button on your podcast platform of choice and drop us a rating or review. You can also donate to the podcast – every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. You can find the link to donate in the show notes. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about, talking about, and acting on climate change. Bye for now!

[theme music fades out]