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Climate Adaptation at Scale: A Climate Chat with Celine Novenario

[Music] 

KIM KENNY

Welcome to Climate Decoded. On this podcast. We decipher climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. And welcome to a series we're calling climate chats, where I have casual conversations with people doing pretty dang cool climate work, and we discussed that work through a communication lens.

KIM

Hey, climate decoders, welcome to our second climate chat. Today I spoke with Celine Novenario. She's a senior communications manager at the Global Center on Adaptation, or GCA, and she's based in Rotterdam in the Netherlands. So we spoke over zoom me from Oregon, her from Rotterdam, and talked all things communication and climate and her work. Celine grew up in the Philippines, originally from the Philippines, and then went on to work for the UN in New York, and we met in Geneva, Switzerland, when we were both working for WMO. And I really looked up to and continue to look up to Celine as a communications expert and someone who approaches what can be complex topics and kind of niche terminology in creative, beautiful ways. So I encourage you to check out some of Celine's work with GCA on their website, gca.org and I'll put some links in the show notes on our website to more of her specific work. But today we talk about her career, her work with GCA, her environmental ID, being from the Philippines, and a whole lot more. So without further ado, let's jump into our conversation with Celine Novenario.

KIM

Celine, welcome. Could you please introduce yourself and say a little bit about how you came into climate change work. 

CELINE NOVENARIO

Yeah, hi, I'm Celine Novenario. I'm currently a senior communications manager at the Global Center on Adaptation. And yeah, I started working on climate think in 2016 when I got a job as a communications officer at the World Meteorological Organization where you and I met.

KIM

Yay! Yeah, I had an internship and on a different floor, and I really looked up to say, but I yeah, thought you were the best. You were, like my standard of the best climate communicator in the building. And I always remember, like, the most important rule of communication, or the best thing you can do is to learn how to listen like before you communicate, before you start talking, listen to what they want, and then what they really want might be different than what they say that they want. So your listening skills will help with that. And I always, yeah, I carried that with me after you left. So thanks. 

CELINE

Thanks for reminding me that I had that wisdom once. You probably need to remind myself of that now and then. I mean, like, I think I had to do that, right? Because when I started at WMO, I really, like, didn't know much about that whole world. I mean, I was, you know, I my background was, like, you know, I started out as a journalist in the Philippines, and then I worked at the United Nations in New York for a long time, but it was mostly like doing websites, and not really like touching the climate topic. It wasn't until like WMO, really, and it was like this. I'm sure you, well, I don't know if you felt like this, because you had more like an education in it, right? But, like, it felt like this, crash course, yeah, everything, climate.

KIM

Yeah. And the weather world is totally different, too, in forecasting, and they can get really nerdy.

CELINE

Yes, yeah. I mean, at some point, you know, I was like, swimming in climate variables. It's and, I mean, it was also kind of fun though, because I remember, like, the challenge there was that, like, everybody was, like, so scientific, and they just wanted to communicate this to, like, people who didn't have that background. And I was like, that's me. How would I want to learn about this?

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

And I spent so much time drawing graphics, trying to make everything as like fun and attractive as possible. So I mean, I also learned a lot in the process, because there's nothing quite like trying to illustrate, I don't know I can't, something like albedo.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

To really, like, understand what that means, right? 

KIM

Yeah. 

CELINE

So yeah. And since then, I've just continued working on climate, just in different areas. So after WMO, I worked with the Carnegie Climate Governance Initiative, and that was a whole other spectacular world to explore, because they focused on the need to govern carbon dioxide removal and solar radiation modification. And I mean, that's also fascinating, albeit scary, as I'll admit, but like, you know, the idea that one day things could get so bad that, you know, some countries or just well, people might consider spraying aerosols into the air to block the sunlight, you know, just to bring down the temperature. 

KIM

Yeah, it's one of these post apocalyptic movie type.

CELINE

Exactly. And again, I continued making infographics of those. Yeah, it's just all like, very, very confronting. But I thought like it was an interesting place to also be, because I think when we were at WMO. It was very like scientific 

KIM

Yes, and non political. 

CELINE

And then going into C2G, which is like the acronym for that initiative, they were talking about governance and how, you know, all of society needed to be included in this conversation, and that was, like, the only time that I started understanding, like, how climate intersects with so many other issues, and somehow, like, I didn't even consider that when we were at WMO, it was just.

KIM

Right. It's not just science, it's city planning, it's poverty alleviation, it's like, women's health, it's transportation.

CELINE

Exactly, yeah. And now I'm at the Global Center on Adaptation. I mean, today I'm, you know, trying to, I wrote a blog, and then I’m trying to make a little video for International Women's Day. And then again, you think about, like, how, yeah. I mean, you know, the effects of climate change are not gender neutral, like women are affected so differently than men, like in the countries where women have to it's their responsibility to fetch water for the family, then, like, yeah, every degree of warming is a huge difference for them, right? So.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

So I mean, that's kind of the work, like, how I got into this work and the work I'm currently doing now. 

KIM

Okay, perfect. Do you think you kind of slid into that because that was a job that you had, and then you saw another job opening, or did climate change as a topic grab you? And then you wanted to keep doing jobs that involved climate change, or that it, yeah?

CELINE

I mean, I still remember the the like, first motivation letter I wrote to to get my first climate job. And, you know, I don't think I was just being I was just telling a trying to tell a good story. I mean, it's kind of true that basically what made me really interested and want to kind of put my career on this path was like experiencing Hurricane Sandy in New York. I grew up in the Philippines, so like, for me, it was like typhoons were just fact of life. Like, you know, every year you have a lot of them, some worse than others. Your house might flood, might lose power. It could be really bad, you know. But I somehow always thought that was just something that happened in the Philippines, like in the third world, you know, and being in New York and having that happen, and seeing that, like, oh my gosh. Like, even the great city of New York.

KIM

Right, this pinnacle of development and American society and. 

CELINE

Right. Like, it's not immune to this. This actually is a problem. That kind of got me more interested in it, and thankfully, like, you know, I mean, I got my first sort of chance with WMO. They thankfully took a chance despite me, like honestly, not fully understanding what the 1.5 degree target was.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

For the job, but yeah, and I mean, since then, like, I've just kept finding opportunities. I've been lucky enough to find, like, opportunities to kind of keep learning more and communicating on more, more, more topics, and I, I hope that continues. I kind of like, can't even imagine-

 KIM 

Another. 

CELINE 

-doing anything else. 

KIM

Yeah, yeah, wow. I'm so glad to know you and glad that you're doing this work. It's so cool to know so many people who are working on climate in some way in this area. 

CELINE

Do you feel the same way? Are you like bitten by the climate bug? 

KIM

Oh, a bit. Yeah. I think I always, I want it to be part of my work. Always. I don't know if it'll ever be the main thing. I think one thing about climate for me is it is one of these giant issues like policing or mental health or any one of those issues can just swallow you whole if you let it become your whole life. 

CELINE

Right. True.

KIM

I think it would be a big problem like burnout is a real problem for people working in this space. 

CELINE

Yeah.

KIM

So balancing it with other things, like mountain biking or my cat, reading novels that have nothing to do with that. Like, but I always want climate work to be part of the pie, the work pie, I think, yeah. 

CELINE

I mean, it's true, right? Like, sometimes, if you think too much about it, it's it can be thoroughly depressing, I mean.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

It seems like this enormous, like, intractable challenge, and, like, all of your efforts feel like little chips.

KIM

Right, right. Even matter, all these existential questions. But, yeah, I think there's so much value in just doing good work for the work's sake. And maybe we will never solve the world, world's problems, and maybe everything will still go to shit anyway, but at least we were trying our hardest. 

CELINE

Keeping trying.

KIM

Yeah, and we made good impacts in the little circles around us in our little lifetimes.

CELINE

True, but I mean, like on one hand, like, you know, it can be so depressing, but I think it's also, like, you can also, like, find so many pockets of hope. And I mean, that's kind of what I'm thankful for with my my current job. Like, we're very, like, solutions focused.

KIM

I love that, yeah.

CELINE

My job before kind of also drilled into my head, like, there is no such thing as like a silver bullet, no such thing as like a solution. You know, you have to, like, think that everything has upsides and downsides. Don't be, like, seduced by the idea. So there's like, one part of my head screaming that, and then the other one is just like, yeah, but we need to also just focus on the good things that are there. 

KIM

Yes, yeah. I think of it as a yes and thing. Like, all we need, all the solutions.

CELINE

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there are so many cool things. I mean, I'm like, totally nerding out. There's like this article that I'm writing because basically, like so the Global Center on Adaptation and like the African Development Bank and Climate Investment Funds, every year we run this like competition that, like basically looks for, like, African entrepreneurs who have, like, climate adaptation solutions and that are like, ready for scaling up. You know, they have to be like, running businesses, and then they get like, $100,000 in grant funding, and they go into this mentorship program, and their solutions are just so cool. I mean, there's, like, a company in Kenya where, like, they have some advanced condensation generator that takes, like humidity and turns it into water. 

KIM

Wow.

CELINE

Apparently, this is something the military, that came from the military.

KIM

Of course, like so many innovations.

CELINE

Exactly. But they're kind of like, yeah, taking it from that world to drought stricken communities, right? But it's just so cool to see those things that you're like, yeah, they're out there, you know? I mean, we kind of try to focus more on the things that can help people and just scale them up. I wish I had billions.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

To pore on these things. 

KIM

To scale up all these projects. 

CELINE

Yeah, right. Why wasn't I born a billionaire? I would have so many– exactly, I would like pour all my money into these projects, right? 

KIM

Yeah, yeah. I think this is, like, kind of somewhat tangent, but in the happiness I think it's called the Happiness Project, but I read this book by a guy talking about happiness, and he talks about scanning the world and how you see the world can affect how you have gratitude and how happy you are. So if you're scanning the world for bad things, then you become a more negative person. If you scan the world for good things, you become a more positive person. So if we're scanning our climate world for solutions versus like, how we're all gonna burn and die and like, everything sucks.

CELINE

Absolutely.

KIM

Changes your mindset, obviously, yeah. And I think we need both, like, we need a reality check, and some people do need that, like, slap in the face of, let's get going. But I think having all those solutions in your like, front and center in your view is really important.

CELINE

Yeah. I mean, it's just yeah. I mean, I find it, like, super inspiring, and I'm glad that, like, you know, at least that's the focus of my work, right? Every day, find the solutions and I like them. It's like, such a joy. 

KIM

Well, let's get into some of the specifics of your work. I was going to ask about environmental ID and all that. But let's go, since we're naturally on that path of talking about some of the specifics of your work. So yeah, what kind of climate change work do you do? Maybe, what are some more examples of these specific solutions, and how do you do the communication work in particular?

CELINE

Well, what we're finding, and you know, it's not surprising, I think I found this, like, everywhere I've gone, is that when you're in the climate world, you you're like, oh yeah, you know all the terms, you know all the ideas. And you think, like, you know mitigation, adaptation, it's like, basic concepts. Everyone should know that. The rest of the world, just like gives a blank stare. 

KIM

Costs of damage.

CELINE

Exactly, exactly like, what are you talking about, all of these things. So, yeah, I mean, as with previous jobs, like, you know, I’m working a lot on explainers, just to kind of get people to understand what, what's the difference between mitigation and adaptation? What's adaptation? Why? What does it mean if you say, like, we have to adapt for food security, like, what does that actually look like? So, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of you know, trying to create short videos that hopefully people will like when they see it on Instagram or Tiktok. I still haven't cracked I think I might be just too old to understand.

KIM

Yeah, I manage the Instagram for a college at OSU that I work for, and they've talked about going into Tiktok, but I have not. 

CELINE

Yeah, really, this is really one of those things where I think, I think I'm gonna have to hire someone for this. I think it's like, not in my wheelhouse, and never will be

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

Yeah, but yeah, so it's, it's a lot of that. It's also yeah, writing blogs, asking other people to, to write their stories. And then I work a lot with like our, you know, we have some programs at GCA. So there's, like, a program on, like, infrastructure and nature based solutions. Like, how do you make infrastructure climate resilient? Like, if you're going to build a road, how do you know that it's going to, like, withstand what the climate will be in 10, 20– yeah, exactly right. Like, you don't want to build a road now and then it's washed out 10 years later because it wasn't like climate proof. Not that I know every- anything will ever be actually climate proof,

KIM

Yeah, yeah.

CELINE

But we can at least try. And then, yeah, there's like a program on water. There's also a program on locally led adaptation. I think that one is really fascinating. And I think that's also like one thing that I really like about my current work. I mean, I'm from the Philippines. I'm from the developing world, right? Like, so I really appreciate how the focus is that, like, you know, there's the people who are in the front lines of climate change are already adapting

KIM

Right, yeah.

CELINE

They have been adapting since the beginning. 

KIM

They don’t need the white savior to come in and say, here's how you can adapt. They're already figuring it out because they have to. 

CELINE

Exactly like, you can actually learn from them.

KIM

Yes, yeah. 

CELINE

So yeah. I mean, every year we have like this competition for like, who has like, the most inspiring, locally led adaptation solutions. And that's also just again, like that also just makes my heart sing to see those stories and find out about, find out more about those initiatives and just have them, yeah, I mean, just amplify them any way we can. Like, I mean, there's I think, oh, I shouldn't talk about it too much, because I might like completely, I might not remember it correctly. 

KIM

That's all right, we can do like, show notes and link to it afterwards.

CELINE

Exactly, exactly I don't want to describe it, and then actually, it might be completely inaccurate. But anyway, I mean, there is, like, there's this wonderful website called the local global hub and locally led adaptation. And you know, like, basically communities can also just share their stories through it. So it's not just like, you know who people have won the competition, but I mean, they are also like, our locally led adaptation team is like, trying to, like, gather as many stories as they can there. So it's just starting up, but, you know, I think it's one of the most, like, inspiring parts of our work. And I mean, this is, like, maybe the nerdier thing, but like, basically the so the other thing that I've just learned about since joining GCA is like, how, like multilateral development banks work. I mean, that's also like a thing that I wasn't really exposed to before.

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

But like, the Global Center on Adaptation and wanting to make, like, a big impact. What the business model is like is mostly like, okay, what are the big multilateral development banks doing? Like, what are the World Bank projects, African Development Bank projects that are going on? Are they financing a new road? Are they like, financing a food security program, is there an adaptation angle to it? And if it's not, if there isn't, then we kind of come in and bring in that expertise. But like now, the sort of newer strand of work that's starting with the locally led adaptation is that we work with like organizations on the ground like Brock in Bangladesh, and then they're helping communities like come up with their own adaptation plan, and then from there, we'll Like, sort of find the link from that plan to the multilateral development bank that's financing. So it's still, like, starting up and, well, I'm obviously not the one doing the actual work. I will just tell the story once it's done. It's fascinating.

KIM

Yeah, exactly. 

CELINE

But it's, it's all, like, really fascinating, yeah, and it's just like I said, I mean, I think in a world that can be depressing to communicate about, it's just like, uplifting. Be on this, be on this path of, like, looking for where things are working, and just how you can sort of just move action forward.

KIM Yeah, yeah. Speaking of forward and future, one of the questions that I like to ask, and usually I save it for the end, but something– I need to figure out the best way to quote this. But I feel like I read this quote somewhere that you can't live the future that you can't envision, like that's why we make vision boards, or we have, you know, manifestations, or we think about how we want the world to be. So maybe working where you are now, and seeing all these adaptation solutions gives you ideas for different futures. So wanted to ask, what's your positive vision of our collective climate future?

CELINE

I mean, I know people use this term, not quite in a flattering way, but I think I might be one of those people who’s like, kind of a techno optimist.

KIM

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so like technological solutions?

CELINE

Yeah, or, I don't know, or any you know, it doesn't even need to be like, like an innovation doesn't need to be like technological right? So I don't know, I just kind of, I think I'm probably overly optimistic, but that's just how I am in all aspects of my life anyway. But I'm just, like, optimistic that we're clever enough and like that our, you know, drive to exist is strong enough that we will kind of find our way out of this. And, yeah, like, I see just like a future where we have managed, we have managed somehow to cleverly get ourselves out of this hole, hopefully not by going the solar radiation modification route, but like.

KIM

Aerosols to cover the sun.

CELINE

Or, yeah, yeah. I mean, hopefully not that route. I mean, I'm thinking, like, you know, I'm just, I'm just seeing, like, I said, like every, every day, all of these like little innovative solutions that, like young people have about doing just doing things differently, doing doing things better. You know, just like just how to kind of farm in a more resilient way, or in a more well regenerative way. I'm just hoping that, like, yeah, somehow it will all work out. I mean, there's also kind of a part of me I said I am super optimistic, but then I also have one side of me that's like thinking, I think it's probably gonna get really bad before it gets better. I hope not, but I mean, history kind of tells us that we're also kind of that way. 

KIM

Yeah, as human beings. 

CELINE

Yeah, exactly. And just kind of trying to focus on the bright light at the end of the tunnel, otherwise, like it feels hopeless, right? If you don't.

KIM

Yeah [INAUDIBLE]

CELINE

The only way I know how to get through it.

KIM

That works. 

CELINE

What's yours? 

KIM

Oh, man, I should have a better answer prepared after asking people this question, but something like more elective in the way that we live with each other, and like sharing of resources and a different lifestyle where, yeah, I don't know. It's more community, community oriented, and we take care of each other. I feel like the climate change is an opportunity for humanity to learn about ourselves. And maybe we won't like what we see for parts of it, but maybe we can take care of each other. And yeah, think more collectively. So that's my part of my positive vision. I think technolog techno- what's the term?

CELINE

Techno optimism.

KIM

Yeah, I think that's part of it. And like, we are so smart, we have so many solutions already.

CELINE

Right.

KIM

And even if we implemented all the solutions that we have now, we could solve so much. It's just, I think a lot of it is getting that kick in the butt, especially for politicians, and that so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of so few.

CELINE

Yeah.

KIM

Which you know, if those few do happen to fund climate related things, but still, I think it creates a problem. 

CELINE

Yeah, right. I mean, like the amount of money burned to send a rocket to space.

KIM

Right, like a penis-measuring contest, basically.

CELINE

Exactly, exactly. That was all I could think about when I was watching all those rockets go up. I was like, wow, how much money did they just burn in that one? 

KIM

Literally, yeah. 

CELINE

I mean, you know, not to be a total. What is that? Not to be a total– I'm probably going to mispronounce it luddite?

KIM

Luddite.

CELINE

Not to be a luddite, like, I understand that, you know, you know, there are a lot of things that we enjoy in our daily lives–

KIM

Like electricity.

CELINE

–that are the result, no, but I mean that are like that we also have, like, I don't know, all of these space voyages to be thankful for, but sometimes I'm just like, they're also like a lot of problems right here.

KIM

Right, yeah.

CELINE

Maybe we could burn money on that. 

KIM

Yeah, yeah. All right, wanted to ask you more about GCA and give you a chance to plug that kind of work a little bit more, what kind of work you do. And any revelations you have about communication that you’ve gained there. I mean, each job you’ve had seems like you’ve learned a different communication aspect along the way.

CELINE

Yeah. Well, okay I think I’ve been talking about like GCA throughout, so I don’t even know what else there is like left to say. I mean, yeah maybe, maybe the one thing I haven’t said which I just find super cool is we work in a floating office. 

KIM

Cool, and you're in the Netherlands, right?

CELINE

Yeah, yeah. So we're, our office is in Rotterdam, and it's literally this office that's just floating on the water. And it's sort of like this embodiment of climate adaptation. You know, it's like it can be disassembled and towed somewhere else. It runs on like solar power. It's heated through the I mean, like the heating system works. Well, I'm probably going to butcher that too, but it's something to do with the river water. 

KIM

Yeah, yeah.

CELINE

So, I mean, I think that's, like, incredibly cool. I mean, what have I learned at GCA, I think, I think what I've learned more is, like an approach. So, like our CEO, this very like energetic, dynamic man, the professor, Patrick McCoy, and he always says, like, you know, we can be really busy doing lots of things, seems like, but you know, what are the top three most impactful things that you can do and just do that? 

KIM

Yeah

CELINE

You will accomplish so much more if you just focus on those, like top three things.

KIM

Yes. 

CELINE

And so I think, yeah, that's kind of like been my driving sort of motto in the last few years. Like, what could I talk about that will, like, reach the most people? I mean, I could, I could probably, like, write about something or make a video that's, like, really esoteric. Or, you know, like, I think, when was it last month? I was like, oh, it's gonna be like something. I think it would, what was it called? Like the globe, something about tourism resilience day. Global tourism resilience day. 

KIM

Yeah. 

CELINE

And I was like, oh, it would be great to kind of talk about, like, tourism and climate adaptation. Like, everybody wants to see, like, videos with beaches and skiing and so on. Like, how do you draw people into your topic-

KIM

Right. 

CELINE

-through stuff like that, right? Like, so, I mean, that worked out really well. I thought that was fun, also really fun to do. But yeah, I mean, kind of just this, this sort of mindset that like, yeah, what are the, what are the things that people already like, and how do you bring your, how do you bring your topic into that.

KIM

Right. 

CELINE

Get people to think about it for a little bit.

KIM

Yeah, kind of a sneaky climate change or adaptation, like-

CELINE

Yeah. I mean-

KIM

this happens to be related to climate change or.

CELINE

Exactly. I mean, I like, last week, sorry, this is a segue, but I have a friend from the Philippines who's a journalist, and she likes, she does climate journalism. Her name is Lou Albano, and somebody actually posted one of her articles. It's like, so clever. Like, look how she's just bringing climate into everything. And she it was like a story about, I'm not really into k pop, but like, maybe either a Korean pop star or a Korean actor. They're like, Filipinos love this right now. So someone was in the Philippines and during the interview made a comment like, wow, it's so hot. It's just really so hot. Like, why is it so hot? 

KIM

Bam, climate change!

CELINE

And she kind of, like, used that as an opportunity to, like, kind of, you know, in the middle of this article, just like, well, why is it so hot? And I don't know how many, like, paragraphs on climate change. And I was like, That's brilliant. Now all these people who just wanted to read about the Korean pop star know.

KIM

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they don't even realize what they've known, but now they're in it.

CELINE

Exactly. So I'm like, how, how else can we do this? You know? I mean, yeah, how do we just bring climate into everything that we're talking about? I think this climate scientist, Catherine Hayhoe, she does it a lot too, right? Like, I mean, you can talk about climate without saying the word climate.

KIM

Right, right. Totally. It's all around us.

CELINE

Yeah, but it's also like the people who are so, like, very resistant to it, you can still talk to them about it by just talking about other things that they care about, right? Like, they care about having water, they care about having food.

KIM

Yeah, very valid. Cares first problems, like.

CELINE

Exactly, I don't have to, like, give them a whole spiel about, like, the Paris targets, probably, and just, I can still get them to agree that we probably like, try to use our car a little bit less, you know. 

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

Want to still have water and food.

KIM

Yeah, I really, I like that. I think a lot about how to meet the audience where they are, and not polar bears. Not everyone has a polar bear in their daily life or cares about them.

CELINE

I feel like, I feel like the beat, I think we definitely learned that when we were at WMO, right. Like, stop using polar bears. 

KIM

Yeah, not the thing. It won't grab most people. It does grab some people, but yeah.

CELINE

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like that's seared into my brain every time I see a polar bear, or see someone use the polar bear. 

KIM

Yeah, no. All right, so we're kind of skipping around on the question.

CELINE

I know, I'm so sorry. 

KIM

Oh no, thank you for your patience.

CELINE

I mean, I feel like I'm the one testing your patience.

KIM

No, no, it's great. I enjoy chatting to you, and even if it's a different question, I know you prepared for these questions, so I know that you speak to them. I did want to ask you your environmental ID, and maybe it's a good one to end on, since we're at about 30 minutes, but I like to ask everyone how they relate to their natural world. So an environmental ID can be like you grew up on a farm and you got to know nature by being with cattle, or maybe you have a garden in the backyard, or, yeah, live on the ocean. Plenty of examples, but I think it I was talking to a climate psychologist, and he was saying how it empowers people when they have their environmental ID, and they can articulate it, because it shows them how they relate to the natural world and it’s more personal.

CELINE

Yeah, feel like, I think mine is only half formed, so I'll keep, I'm gonna keep, like, thinking about this, our conversation. Because I, when I first thought about it, I was like, oh gosh, it's kind of sad. Because, like, I said, I did. I grew up in the Philippines, which is, like the what is, it's like, the most disaster prone country in the world?

KIM

Yes, yeah.

CELINE

Something like that, like we have, yeah. I mean, like cyclones. We have, I'm not terrified of earthquakes at all because I've experienced so many of them. So all this to say, I feel like I have more than a healthy fear the environment, actually more than, like, I kind of really have a strong respect for nature and what it can do. 

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

And I guess that's also why, like, I'm in, I'm in climate, right? Like, I do know how, how bad it can get. I mean, I've seen floodwaters rise up in my house, and that was, you know, when I was a child. And they've just become more and more frequent. And I know how terrifying that all can be. So but at the same time, I feel like so, like, in the Philippines, parents are always a bit like, they're overly cautious, like, you're going to the beach, don't swim, you might drown, like all because, you know, there's a lot of rip currents in the Philippines. And so this is like a this is like a constant thing you would hear, at least for my generation, from our parents. I don't think we say it to our kids anymore, but there's like, a lot of fear of nature. And I think I had to leave the Philippines and kind of be more adventurous, you know, like finally hike. I never hiked when I was in the Philippines. There's like so much nature in the Philippines, and it wasn't until I left that I started doing these things to kind of have a bigger appreciation-

KIM

Interesting.

CELINE

-for nature. That it's actually like something beautiful that you can enjoy, that you don't have to be afraid of. But it's I, but I'm, I'm like, see-sawing between those two things, especially like working so much on climate. Because you keep thinking, yeah, if we don't kind of get a handle on this, it will be terrifying. It can be terrifying.

KIM

Yeah, yeah.

CELINE

Yeah. I guess I'm like, maybe I need therapy for my environmental ID. 

KIM

Oh, totally, we all do. That's another– yeah. There's actually a climate therapist or someone who does eco anxiety therapy. Who said this about the environmental ID? Thomas Doherty, he's a psychologist therapist in Oregon, and I found that concept interesting, but.

CELINE

I guess I am eco anxious.

KIM

Yeah, and there was a study. We did an episode on climate anxiety. That the Philippines is actually the most likely to experience climate anxiety or ego anxiety, especially among young people in the Philippines

CELINE

I mean well, why wouldn't you, right? Like you're literally confronted by it? 

 KIM

Yeah, and I think there's a fine line between fear and respect. Like, we definitely need to respect the natural world. But when fear turns into like, negative things, then that can be not so good. Like, you could take fear to like, oh, now we need to dominate the natural world, which I think is where-

CELINE

Right.

KIM

-a lot of our patriarchal white male Western society has taken it, like we're so afraid of it that we're going to, like show it who's boss and, yeah, that doesn't work either. 

CELINE

No, no, it does not. I'm trying to remember which writer that was.

KIM

Naomi [INAUDIBLE], maybe?

CELINE

No, like, was it now I have to Google it. It's like, under the white sky. Elizabeth Colbert, and that's full of examples of these, like moments where man was like, I will dominate. 

KIM

Yeah.

CELINE

I will, I'll be able to control this. And she just, like, goes on to show you chapter after chapter that we just make things worse.

KIM

Yeah, yeah. Like, bitch, you thought you could really control me?

CELINE

Exactly. So, I mean, that's also like, yeah. I mean, maybe I need to reread it at some point to keep my my techno optimism in check. 

KIM

Yeah. 

CELINE

I remember reading that and thinking, oh, she's right. It doesn't always go so well.

KIM

Yeah, well there's a balance. There's a place for both, I guess.

CELINE

Yeah, yeah. I just have to keep treading that balance. I like what you said, like, I mean, I have to remind myself that it's, you know, there should be respect, but hopefully not fear. 

KIM

Yeah. Is there any like current initiative that you would like to plug in particular or talk about with GCA, or your current work that people should–

CELINE

Oh, gosh. And this is where I totally failed. 

KIM

You mentioned the global hub on locally led adaptations.

CELINE

Yeah, yeah, I did. I did. Yeah. I mean, these are all like fun ongoing things, yeah, well, I mean, I think I would just maybe plug, like I said earlier that we're trying to create more content that just like explains things, explains adaptation. So, I mean, I would just maybe urge anyone watching or listening to this that you know, if you see one of those videos and you enjoy them, then please share them, because so many people still need to kind of better understand the topic. And I think, yeah, I think, like understanding what it is and getting a grasp on on those, like, very basic topics. It's just like the first step for so many people. 

KIM

Yeah, education should be a component of all of the–

CELINE

Yeah, I'll try to make the education as entertaining as possible.

KIM 

Yeah, yeah, you do a beautiful job. 

CELINE

Thanks.

KIM

I'll link some of the videos and stuff wherever we post this. 

CELINE

Yeah, that would be great.

[Music]

KIM

You've been listening to Climate Decoded. Climate Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Heledd Davies-Jones, Isabel Baudish, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens Wendel-Hansen, Jamie Stark, Gracie Neher, Alex Teske, and me, Kim Kenny. To read the transcript, learn more about today's guest and find other resources, check out the show notes. To keep up with the podcast, follow us on all the socials. We're at climate_decoded on Instagram and Twitter and Climate Decoded Podcast on LinkedIn. To support the show, hit that follow button on your podcast platform of choice and drop us a rating or review. You can also donate to the podcast. Every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. You can find the link to donate in the show notes. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about talking about and acting on climate change. Until next time, take care of yourselves and keep up the good work.

[Music]