Download the transcript as PDF

Policy Advocacy Breakthroughs: A Climate Chat with Ani Kame’enui

[Climate Decoded theme music starts, sparse and slightly reverberant, anticipatory]

KIM KENNY
Hello, hello, hello, climate decoders. Good morning from Oregon or good afternoon or good evening wherever you are in the world right now. 

I hope you are doing well.  I just got off a call with Ani Kame-enui. She is the director of strategic initiatives at Breakthrough Energy and wonderful to talk to her. I met Ani at a family dinner that I happened to crash on my parents, in my parents' neighborhood a couple of years ago and just loved talking to her and her motivations for getting into climate work.

Ani has a background in engineering and geology and then she worked for over 10 years as a lobbyist on Capitol Hill working for conservation groups and now she works for Breakthrough Energy, which is an organization founded by Bill Gates in 2015, really focused on innovation  as a gateway to address the climate crisis. With Ani, we talked about the three Ds that are part of Breakthrough Energy of discovery development and deployment.  If you go to their website and watch this video that Bill Gates does about why he started this organization, he kind of likens the climate crisis to developing a computer.

Not as simple as that, but how he started his work as making a giant desktop computer and now we essentially have computers in our pockets, in our phones and what a gigantic shift change that people didn't think was possible originally from computers that would take up an entire room to something that fits in your pocket. And we need that spirit of innovation and that level of change for the climate crisis. So that's what this organization is bringing to the conversation, to the ‘climate space’.

And Ani focuses on policy work in particular and we talk a little bit about the Inflation Reduction Act, for example, passed in the US and yeah, just diving into her work, how it's communicated, how different people talk about climate change in different ways and need to have agency in how they approach the problem. So yeah, without further explanation or ado, let's get into our climate chat with Ani Kame-enui.

Ani, good to talk to you today. Could you please introduce yourself and say a little bit about your ‘climate change’ work?

ANI KAME’ENUI
Yeah, so I'm Ani Kame-enui, I am the Director of Strategic Initiatives at an organization  called Breakthrough Energy and the work that I do is really about participating in a network of climate leaders that are committed to accelerating our collective shared journey toward clean energy progress and addressing the climate crisis. I have a background actually in science, so I was trained as an engineer and a geologist and so I have,like, a deep appreciation for how science informs how we address challenges and particularly challenges we're facing in our environment. And I became a lobbyist, really with the ideal of trying to determine how science could inform policy progress.

And when I joined Breakthrough Energy, I was really excited to participate in  something that is deeply science-driven and really looks at the analytics but also appreciates and understands sort of the complexities of the climate challenge and how it's not just about the science, it's also about how policy affects that work, it's also about what is happening in the economy and how the market does or does not drive the technologies and the work forward. So it's been really fun to be part of a different type of advocacy ecosystem as part of Breakthrough Energy.

KIM KENNY

I'm so sorry I called you Annie and not Ani.

What is your environmental ID, do you think? I'm curious if anyone's ever asked you this question. That's kind of how you relate to your natural world. How is your relationship with your environment developed?


ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, I haven't been asked this exact question but it comes up a lot when people are talking about sort of like, what's your professional evolution to this place?  And for me it is very personal, so it makes sense to be asked like, what is your identity in this space? And for me, my sort of environmental identity is shaped by two things and one I already mentioned, which is that the deep roots in science.

We transitioned some years ago into an unfortunately like fact light universe and I am somebody who believes deeply in the value of science as an informing opportunity, an exploratory opportunity in our natural world. But I also have a really deep sense of place. I was raised in the west, I was raised with grandparents that have a deep sense of place in places like Montana and I was that sense of belonging to the natural world was cultivated very early in me.

And like so many people that I have had the privilege of growing up around, being part of this natural environment has always been very, very important to me. Whether it's recreationally or through advocacy work or through instilling those same values in my own family and children about protecting and honoring it. So my identity is really wrapped up in sort of like these two pillars of an appreciation for the science and like beauty of the science in the natural world as well as this deep sense of place and belonging to a landscape or a set of landscapes for me.

KIM KENNY
Beautiful!  Do you have specific memories in Montana? I'm imagining riding on horses through the countryside or farming. 

ANI KAME’ENUI
Yeah, well I went to Missoula every summer as a child and you know my family vacations were often to natural places, national parks, doing some type of outdoor recreation.And so I actually, the pieces I love and remember about Montana the most are things like working with my grandfather in the garden, you know helping him pull carrots, simple things like that. And we also have the real privilege of going to Hawaii a lot as a child. My dad is Hawaiian and you know we, many kids didn't grow up with these two very different ecosystems as part of their regular life.

And so I have great memories of, you know, visiting beaches as a young kid and just like the vastness and the appreciation of the ocean in the same way I appreciate the mystery of mountains. 

KIM KENNY

It strikes me how it's connected to your family as well. It's not only experiencing nature, but with someone else closely related to you.


ANI KAME’ENUI
Yeah, for me it's deeply rooted in family. It's deeply rooted in how they helped instill that sense of place and honoring the places that you grew up in. So for me it is the two are intrinsically linked for sure.


KIM KENNY

What kind of climate change work do you do professionally?


ANI KAME’ENUI

So over time I have, my professional relationship with doing climate work has really changed. And I have moved from you know the pure science work into advocacy and lobbying. I lobbied for over 10 years on Capitol Hill with large national conservation organizations working on the protection of beautiful places. And now at Breakthrough Energy, I work for the policy shop which is really responsible for developing and advocating for smart policies that drive the energy transition forward. So I mentioned before that Breakthrough Energy is really made up of a network and we sort of can characterize that as the three D's. Discovery, Development, and Deployment.

So what Breakthrough really aims to do in avoiding a climate crisis is discovering the work of you know research and development and funding and mentorship for early stage energy technologies. Developing the work and looking at groundbreaking technologies and how do we utilize our venture capital arm and Breakthrough Energy ventures to help move those technologies into the market. And then deployment which is really making sure that all those energy technologies and climate interventions, many of which are first of a kind, are emerging into the market successfully.

Breakthrough Energy was founded by Bill Gates in about 2015 and he, this organization has evolved over the years to encompass programs that really look at that full network, that full spectrum of intervening in the climate crisis.


KIM KENNY
Great, those three D's help a lot with remembering the type of things that you do. Do you find you use that elevator pitch when you're, like at cocktail parties or over at dinners or when we had our dinner together for example? I can't remember exactly how you described your work but.

ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, I mean the cool thing the way I often describe it in an elevator pitch is that it's a comprehensive approach to addressing climate progress or climate change. And the reality is, what we're attempting to, at Breakthrough right, is like retain the modern life that people in so many countries are enjoying or we're trying to ensure that people are able to enjoy with cleaner technologies, right? So it's a very purpose-driven organization which I really, really appreciate. And we try to place all these programs within a logical framework. What is possible? What is innovative? And how do we make sure to deploy these solutions in a way that, like, benefits not just the planet but also people and their like modern lifestyles that they have become accustomed to. Bill's book, which is something that I read, How to Avoid a Climate Disaster, I read before starting at Breakthrough is really like a great guidepost.

It's a different approach to how you address climate and advocacy but coming from an advocacy setting on Capitol Hill, I really enjoyed this analytical approach that looks at technology in a really different way and takes the complexities and puts them in a market-based system where you're looking at competitiveness and you're looking at adoption and you're focusing, refocusing on those three D's,  right, discovery, development, and deployment to how you create change but also ensure people are able to continue to move forward in their modern lives in many countries, certainly not all.

KIM KENNY

It always gives me so much hope to have people working on such pragmatic, practical solutions.

ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, it's a privilege to be able to do it, right? It's a privilege to be able to work in this context and work on these projects and think about innovation and, you know, I definitely appreciate that, I really recognize that it is a privilege to be able to think about clean replacing dirty and, you know, that's the beauty of like this work in general is that there is a spectrum of people working on different sectors of the challenge and right now for me in this  chapter of my life, I have the great privilege of working on this chapter which is really thinking about innovation and clean energy and how we help move the market to help encourage the world to deploy and adopt cleaner technologies.

KIM KENNY

Well, I'm glad you're doing this work.
So moving into communication, how do you communicate about the climate crisis in your work?


KIM KENNY
Yeah, it's an interesting question because, you know, I don't know that anyone at Breakthrough Energy would say like, oh we're a communications organization and I recognize that's not the question. It's, how do you talk about these things? How do you make them accessible? How do you make them practical? And the truth is like our job really is about we are fundamentally trying to talk about what kind of future are we trying to build and so we try and talk about climate in context. We are trying to build a future that is enabled by clean energy technology and sometimes when you talk, depending on your audience, right, we are very pragmatic and for some climate change is a huge motivation, right? It's a huge opportunity. It's an advocacy opportunity. It's a catalyst for engagement but for others it's not and so while we definitely don't institutionally and while I certainly personally don't try and hide from thinking and talking about climate change, we also know that we need to be adaptive to our audience just as a people, right? And so I think that there are different ways in which the agenda at Breakthrough Energy can be more accessible to a diverse audience. When you talk about innovation, that is often a gateway for many people in a way that is different than if you're just talking about climate change disasters or natural disasters or weather. And so when we are talking about climate change, we're really trying to use a pragmatic approach to what does that mean in our daily life? How are we addressing the challenges we are facing? How are we building a future, again, enabled by clean energy technology? So really, again, if we're talking about privileges about having agency to move through the world that is deeply affected by climate change  and look at the opportunities for solutions.

KIM KENNY
Yeah, meeting your audience where they're at is huge and effective communication and maybe not even using the words climate change for everybody.

ANI KAME’ENUI
Exactly. Yeah, I think it's about solutions. It's about framing the conversation in terms of abundance and opportunity and optimism rather than scarcity and fear. That's the ideal, right? Isn't that the ideal for us in every conversation? And especially, climate is really daunting, right? Climate is inevitably going to affect all of us and it's going to affect certain populations more than others. And if we can come to those conversations and the solutions with an eye toward abundance and innovation, you know, I have a little bit more hope.

KIM KENNY
Yeah. And that's also starting when you're communicating about it. Maybe you start with having it in your own head, having that framework set. So the next question I wanted to ask was the future that you envision and how and what's your positive vision for our collective future?


ANI KAME’ENUI
Yeah. I am not naturally a person who is glass half full, so you're catching me on a good day. We have made a remarkable amount of progress in the last couple of years in terms of policy change.

At the end of the day, I work for a policy shop. I am deeply pragmatic and the reality is of enforcing change through both carrots and sticks in the United States. And policy is a really important lever to create that change.

We have been instrumental in the policy victories of the last few years in the United States. And if we are able to fully implement the policy changes that are embodied in the Inflation Reduction Act, the bipartisan infrastructure law and the Chips and Science Act, we have a decently bright future ahead of us. There are real challenges with implementation because this is the first and largest climate bill in history and combined in the Inflation Reduction Act and combined with the bipartisan infrastructure law and the Chips and Science Act, it is not anything our federal agencies have ever done and ever deployed before.

And so that challenge on implementation is very real. But I think that innovation is moving faster than we anticipated in climate technologies and so I have a lot of hope there too. So between the policy agenda that has been enabled in the last couple of years, the progress of innovation and technologies, whether that is clean hydrogen or carbon removal or thinking more creatively and aggressively about how we transform our electrical grid, I do have a lot of hope.

But I am a true believer in the spectrum of engagement. So there are organizations out there doing trail restoration, native plantings, there are organizations that are taking people on hikes to ensure that they too adopt and embrace a deep sense of place. There are the organizations I used to work for that are working inside the Beltway and Capitol Hill on lobbying for policies to ensure protection of endangered species.

And then there are organizations like Breakthrough Energy that are really looking at the deployment of clean energy technologies. And I'm somebody who has optimism about the entirety of that spectrum. I don't think that there's just one way to address the climate crisis. I don't think that there's just one way to address how you protect wolves. I think that there's a place for everyone and a place for all types of approaches and advocacy to move this challenge forward. So I try not to be an elitist in terms of both the approach and my optimism about the future, that all of these pieces combined create ideally a brighter future, at least for my children, moving forward.

KIM KENNY

Yeah, we need everything, anything and everything, different solutions coming at climate change. Yeah. And I think of it as like every type of problem. It's city planning, it's poverty alleviation, it's family planning, it's...


ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah. And to that exact point, right, that when we're addressing the climate crisis, we also have to be looking at issues of equity. You mentioned before, you know, that these are, we are trying to enable and allow people to move forward with their lives in a way that is cleaner. But, that also, there is an inherent privilege in being able to do that. And so I think that one of the wonderful things about the legislation that has passed in the last couple of years is that there's a lot of funding built in to do a better job in our evolution out of fossil fuel-based economy to ensure that populations that have been most affected by climate change, most affected by natural disasters and most disabled from advancing in the future are addressed with funding, with programmatic changes, etc. So I think that, that can be looking at equity, can be part of our evolving engagement with climate.

KIM KENNY
Yeah, that needs to be part of our future  vision.



ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, definitely!


KIM KENNY
I'm curious, just one more add-on question to that. I know you have kids and you're very connected to place. What's your positive vision for the future within your own family, for your own children going through? I know that's quite a personal question.

ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, it is. But it's a good one, right? Those of us who are fortunate enough to have small people in our lives, it's a huge privilege, but it's a huge burden too. And I think as somebody who works in climate and looks a lot at climate research, climate polling, what happens if we don't meet our goals and ambitions in terms of climate, there are plenty of reasons to be a little bit anxious about the future. And so, you know, for them, I want them to enjoy and appreciate the moment that we're in. You know, I have a nine-year-old who still every time we drive the same drive into the mountains, he remarks at the beauty of the mountains. And to me, that is such a wonderful thing. I just love that about him. 

And I never want them to lose that mystery and that curiosity about the natural world. And so, you know, that's what I'm hopeful for is that they can retain that. The world is going to change really dramatically in their lifetimes. 

But I'm hoping that they can both retain some of these memories that developed their own sense of place to activate them to be part of this diverse spectrum of solutions. And I'm also trying to do that in them too, to say like, you have a responsibility. You have a responsibility in your role as a human on this planet and in the wealthiest nation in the world to participate in this advocacy spectrum. What does that look like for you? You know, and helping them find their path in that world of engagement. Fingers crossed. 

KIM KENNY

Yeah, yeah. Oh! I'm sure it'll be great and continue to be great already. OK, so now just an opportunity to plug Breakthrough Energy and any group or channels or major projects you're working on right now.


ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, I mentioned before that we are in this very unique moment in the United States where we have some pretty powerful policy tools. Breakthrough is on the front lines of working on the implementation of those policy tools that I mentioned, like the Inflation Reduction Act. And I'm pretty excited about what that means for local communities, local economies, what it means for the private sector to really partner with federal policy and federal funding to help propel climate change and climate technologies forward. And Breakthrough is doing a lot on some of these remarkable emerging technologies that are part of these legislative wins. And I mentioned clean hydrogen. I also mentioned carbon removal like direct air capture. And we are working aggressively on how we build a more efficient and effective grid. 

So how do we if we cannot improve transmission in this country, we will be unsuccessful with deploying the rest of these policy wins, just quite frankly. So Breakthrough Energy is doing everything it can, both from an advocacy perspective, from a philanthropic angle to try to ensure successful implementation of these federal programs. Right now, as we're recording this in the spring, Bill is in Texas and he is on a trip to really look at what does it mean on the ground in a place like Texas that is deeply rooted in the fossil fuel economy? What does it look like to have that economy transition into a clean energy economy? What are the challenges you face with the workforce, with labor? What are the challenges you face with the market? And so, you know, it's one of the things that Breakthrough is trying to do is take, again, a pragmatic approach to looking at the clean energy transition in these deeply embedded fossil fuel economies. 

And it's, you know, it leaves me hopeful. And I appreciate that, you know, Bill is on the forefront of taking a very analytical approach to these things with all the practicalities embedded. And, you know, that trip to Texas is a great example of that. It's not going to happen overnight. It's not the flip of a switch, but it is a transition and that's a piece that I think Breakthrough works on the most is that it's a transition. 

This is, progress does not happen in a day, in a week, in a month. It happens over time.


KIM KENNY

Where should people go to learn more about Breakthrough? I imagine you have a website. 

ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, we have a website breakthroughenergy.org and through that website, you can access our thought leadership around individual technologies. You can learn about the three D's that I mentioned. You can learn about the trips like the Texas one that Bill took through his blog called Gates Notes. 

But yeah, breakthroughenergy.org is the best place to reach us. 

KIM KENNY

Perfect. Thank you very much. Any other questions that you wish I had asked you or other thoughts that you wanted to bring up?

ANI KAME’ENUI
This is a tough year. You know, we're in scary times. 2024 is going to be a really challenging year. And I hope that people will continue to be optimistic about progress. And I hope people will be informed about the progress we've made and not lose all hope for the future despite the challenging times that we're in. 

KIM KENNY

Yeah, it's an election year, at least in the US and in the UK and other places in the world.

ANI KAME’ENUI

Yeah, yeah!

KIM KENNY

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. 

ANI KAME’ENUI

Thanks for having me, Kim. 

KIM KENNY

Yeah! Yeah!

[Theme plays to signal end of episode] 

OUTRO:

You've been listening to Climate Decoded. Climate Decoded is produced by Chantal Kaufschultz, Lara Haleth Davis-Jones, Isabelle Bordish, Greg Davis-Jones, Jens Wendel Hansson, Jamie Stark, Gracie Neer, Alex Teske, and me, Kim Kenny. To read the transcript, learn more about today's guest and find other resources. Check out the show notes to keep up with the podcast. Follow us on all the socials. We're at climate underscore decoded on Instagram and Twitter and Climate Decoded Podcast on LinkedIn to support the show, hit that follow button on your podcast platform of choice and drop us a rating or review. You can also donate to the podcast. Every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. You can find the link to donate in the show notes. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about, talking about, and acting on climate change. Until next time, take care of yourselves and keep up the good work.

[Theme music plays for 25 seconds and then fades out]