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The Ocean is "Too Central to Ignore": A Climate Chat about Ocean Narratives with the Honorable Dr. Jane Lubchenco, Former Head of NOAA

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Kimberly Kenny  00:00

Welcome to Climate Decoded, the podcast that deciphers climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. We talk about how we talk about climate change.

And welcome to climate chats, a series in which we have casual conversations with the top climate experts, authors and activists from around the world.

Today, I'm chatting with the honorable Dr Jane Lubchenco. Dr Lubchenco was giving a public talk in Newport, Oregon, and I caught up with her beforehand at the Marine Studies building of the Hatfield Marine Science Center. Dr. Lubchenco has many, many accolades and titles. She served as the Deputy Director for Climate and Environment at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy from 2021 to 2025, she was the US Science Envoy for the Ocean for the US State Department from 2014 to 2016, she was the head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA, from 2009 to 2013, and she continues to work as a world-renowned environmental scientist and as a distinguished professor here at Oregon State University.

Our conversation felt especially timely, as NOAA has recently come under fire from the Trump administration. In this chat, Dr Lubchenco has a few reactions to that, and we also explore past narratives about the ocean and what better narratives we can use going forward. So without further ado, a climate chat with Dr Jane Lubchenco.

Dr Jane Lubchenco, thank you for talking to me today.

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  01:57

It is my pleasure.

Kimberly Kenny  01:59

Could you give a brief introduction to your work for listeners who may not be familiar and where we are today?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  02:07

Sure. My name is Jane Lubchenco. I'm the Valley Professor of Marine Biology and OSU Distinguished Professor at Oregon State University, and I'm a marine ecologist by training, but I focus on the broader world of the intersection between people and the environment, ways in which people depend upon effect and have control over our future, and how we need science to understand what's happening around us and what our options are going forward, so that we can use that information to make the smartest decisions possible.

Kimberly Kenny  02:54

And in some of your former work, you were the administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA. Correct?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  03:03

Correct. I've been an academic for most of my career, but in 2008 I was invited by President Elect at the time, Barack Obama, to join his team in Washington, and so I served as the Under Secretary of Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere and the Administrator of NOAA for four years, 2009 to 2013. Just an amazing opportunity, because NOAA is just really so important to everyone in this country, but also impacts the world . And the mission of science and service and stewardship and how they connect with one another is part of what I really believe in. And so it was a really fabulous opportunity. Following that, I came back to Oregon State University, and then in early 2021, was invited to again, go back and serve, be a public servant, and serve as the Deputy Director for Climate and Environment in the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. So I'm just back at OSU now from four years in the White House, leading an really amazing Climate and Environment Team again, bringing science to the fore to help understand what's happening, what tradeoffs are, and to really accelerate progress in addressing some of the major challenges facing humanity today.

Kimberly Kenny  04:35

You were also the co-founder of COMPASS and our communication podcast is all about climate communication. So I wanted to ask you, throughout your career, what different types of climate change communication have you found yourself involved in?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  04:51

I think for far too long, most scientists and in fact, most journalists. Because we're trying to figure out the science of climate change, and the focus was very much on really drilling down into the science. What do we know? What are we sure of? What are we unsure of, where the research horizons, where we need better information and insufficient thought was really given to making that information accessible to people in ways that were not just a bunch of facts and figures, but that were really focused on the so what, which is what most people are interested in. And I believe that scientists, in addition to doing their science, really pushing the boundaries of knowledge, discovering new things about how our world works, have a responsibility to share what they're learning, but share it in ways that go far beyond scientific publications, which is what most scientists focus on, and indeed, share it in ways that are understandable to people who aren't immersed in the nuances of science and the jargon of science. I like to think about that as scientists learning to become bilingual where they speak the language of science, but also the language of lay people, so that they can make really important new scientific understanding and discoveries more accessible to people, and therefore folks can understand it and use it in their daily lives. And scientists don't always do a good job of that. I think we're trying more and more, and programs like COMPASS and like your podcast, are really nice examples of how we are making, I think, very important efforts to make science more accessible and understandable and relevant.

Kimberly Kenny  07:13

You talked about using metaphors and analogies in this podcast I was listening to here, and you use the metaphor of a baseball player on steroids, and that weather right now is kind of like that baseball player on steroids, that climate change, the frequency of these extreme weather events, the intensity just increases over time. Have you thought of any more metaphors or analogies like that that you found to be really effective in climate communication?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  07:44

One of the things that I challenge my students to do in the science and policy class that I teach is to think about what are the most important core ideas in their various disciplines, because these are students from lots of different disciplines in science, and to try to create new metaphors or analogies, to help people understand those core concepts which are often not very easily explained. And I think metaphors and analogies can really help connect the dots between the known and the related unknown, and the challenge is always to find those metaphors or analogies that actually are good enough to help bridge that gap, but are not so off kilter that They send somebody in a totally different direction. So yeah, the analogy of weather on climate steroids, I think, is a really useful one to help us understand some of the climate weirding, Global Weirding, as Katharine Hayhoe is fond of talking about is happening right now, and that, in fact, is true of not just weather, but a lot of other things where they're just strange things that are going on. And I think we've seen a real turning point in this country where this bizarre weather is not just seen as something that's hypothetical, but most people are seeing it in their daily lives. Yeah, and seeing an increase in the intensity of hurricanes, for example, seeing increases in the amount of extreme precipitation events, increases in in floods, but also in droughts, and increases in heat waves, not only on land, but in the ocean, which we didn't even that wasn't even on the radar screen. Yeah, and so marine heat waves, we've now seen our fear. Real Thing, and have been just absolutely devastating commercially, to a lot of fisheries, but also to a lot of life in the ocean that we depend upon. And so, yeah, we're seeing a lot of strange things happening, and being able to explain those. You know, the science of attribution has gotten better and better and better. And so it used to be that we couldn't really point the finger at something and say, yep, that was because of climate change. We actually can now say that thing the likelihood of that thing happened was increased by X amount because of climate change, and that's very powerful. So the science of attribution is one of the areas where we've made huge progress and is helping us understand and explain some of the changes around us.

Kimberly Kenny  10:57

What are some of the most important narratives around the ocean right now? I know your talk is about narratives, so I wanted to give an opportunity to expand a bit upon that.

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  11:10

I think narratives are much more important than we often give them credit for. They help us understand our place in the world. They help us think about what's important. And it's become very obvious to me that for most of human history, the narrative that people have had around the ocean has been that it is so immense, so bountiful, so resilient that there's very little we could possibly do that would impact the ocean. In short, we thought that the ocean was endlessly bountiful and endlessly resilient, and therefore it was too big to fail, and that too big to fail mentality persists today as we explore new opportunities for using the ocean in different ways, but it's also has in just a few decades, coupled with the amazing modern technology that we have has resulted in massive over exploitation of the ocean and incredible pollution, so much so that people think of the ocean today and they think of bleached coral reefs, depleted fisheries, disgusting plastic pollution and on and on. And so many people now have pivoted from the too big to fail narrative to another one that is sort of throwing up hands and saying, oh my gosh, it is such a mess. There are too many problems there. Each of them is challenging. The vested interests are too powerful. And so we've gone from thinking the ocean is too big to fail to now saying it's too big to fix. And that second too big to fix narrative is really dominant in a lot of places. And so people are turning away from the ocean. I think that there is a third new narrative that is grounded in science, that is grounded in the actions that fishermen and local communities and businesses and governments are taking around the world, that is revealing that in fact, there is another possible future for us, not this doom and gloom future, one in which the ocean is absolutely central to our future. It's central to food security, it's central to climate solutions. It's central to economic prosperity and national security, and it's central to equity and justice and the ocean centered in our future is actually not just a Pollyanna pie in the sky idea, but in fact, is grounded in actual solutions that already exist. They are not at the scale and pace that are needed, but they could be. And so I see the evolution of a new narrative that says the ocean is not too big to fail. It's also not too big to fix, but in reality, it is too central to our future, too important to ignore. And so the arc of this new narrative is what I'm going to be talking about in my lecture, providing some of the examples of the solutions that exist, focusing on people around the world who have gotten creative using science to inform action, new CEOs who are working with scientists, or new heads of state or government that are working with scientists. And so there's a through-line of science informing people taking action. And I see this as a story of hope and possibility coupled with urgency and the need for action.

Kimberly Kenny  15:28

If you were speaking directly to climate communicators, which a lot of our listeners are, what advice would you give them to use this new narrative of the ocean is too big to ignore. What techniques can they use? What storytelling tools can they put into practice to put forth this narrative?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  15:52

I think when a lot of people think about the ocean and climate change, the first thing that comes to mind is the ocean as a victim, and we see impacts of climate change on life in the ocean every place, but the science is telling us that we actually can flip that script and see the ocean not just as a victim of climate change, but as potential, powerful sources of solution to climate change, and we know from scientific analyzes that have been done that the ocean could give us as much as 1/5 of the carbon emission reductions that are needed To get us to the 1.5 degrees by 2050 so the ocean as a solution is flipping the script, if you will. And so that's actually a really interesting way to think about the centrality of the ocean as a climate solution, not just as a victim, and one of the ways in which the ocean is really centered in our future, and so that climate as a solution includes renewable energy, decarbonizing shipping and blue carbon, among other things. So there are multiple opportunities to so much of the climate world, the climate policy world, is focused on land. And this is saying, hey, yeah, land solutions are really key and important. But we also have the ocean, which is over 70% of the surface area of the ocean, I mean, of the world. So let's not forget that ocean and the ocean is often just out of sight, out of mind in terms of policy solutions. So for climate folks, thinking about the ocean and the land, thinking about nature based solutions, not just technology, thinking about adaptation, not just mitigation, thinking about carbon removal, not just emission reduction. All of that is a package where we are expanding the way we understand and think about climate solutions, and the ocean is at the center of many of that.

Kimberly Kenny  18:14

I love all of that. Is there one story that you're particularly excited about right now that you've recently heard, or a solution that you're excited about right now?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  18:28

There's a lot that's underway. I would highlight one that most people don't fully appreciate, and that is the power of the ocean to recover and to again become more resilient and more bountiful, if we give it a chance, and that's through the creation of fully protected marine protected areas, MPAs, not MPAs that are partially protected, but ones that are fully or highly protected, so that either all or most extractive activity is not allowed in a fully protected MPA. And we are seeing around the world over and over and over that areas, especially large areas, that are fully protected the bounty inside the protected area can recover and become amazingly diverse and resilient, and some of that bounty spills over to adjacent areas outside, so it can help recover depleted fisheries, for example. And the scale of that solution is just a drop in the bucket compared to what we need right now, about 3% of the ocean is in fully protected MPA. So it's just tiny, and yet this is such a powerful technique, and recovering depleted fisheries, being able to protect existing stores of carbon on the sea floor and provide protection against biodiversity is a very powerful Triple Bottom Line win that most people haven't fully appreciated, and that needs to be on the table.

Kimberly Kenny  20:29

Right now. we're in an obviously very politically turbulent time. What are your thoughts and feelings, particularly with NOAA facing a lot of pressure right now under the Trump administration?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  20:46

What's happening now is truly appalling, because so many people around the US depend on NOAA for so many different things, and they might not be aware of all of them, but everything from quality weather forecasts to responsible fishery management, people depend on the information what NOAA calls services, the information that is provided about the environment, whether it is sea level rise or sea water temperatures or weather forecasts or disaster warnings, and stopping the collection of data and stopping the research that provides even better understanding that can help underpin future improvements in hurricane forecasts, for example, or tornado warnings, is shooting ourselves in the foot, and there's so much that NOAA provides that brings immediate benefit. We were talking earlier about the importance of the ocean, and there are huge opportunities for more, for using the ocean without using it up, that bring economic benefit that we have only scratched the surface of. And NOAA is the agency that is responsible for developing some of those new partnerships with industry, for exploring new opportunities. And so it's both immediate consequences to people as well as future opportunities. And it's just appalling that to think about the consequences of the firing of people and stopping of data collection and not providing access to information that people depend upon and need. I mean, this is, this is about, you know, it's threatening people's lives and livelihoods, and it's, it's just appalling.

Kimberly Kenny  23:07

Agreed, totally agreed, I'm aware of our time and that you've got a social Meet and Greet before your talk coming up. Are there any other questions you wish I had asked you about climate communication around the ocean, or any other messages you'd like to get out to climate communicators?

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  23:25

Well, thank you for this, Kim. It's been a lot of fun to talk about some of these things. I think I would want to leave on a note of not only urgency, but also one of hope. And I think that what we are seeing around the world are people stepping up, using science and taking action to create a better world, and doing so in ways that use our knowledge about climate change, about the ocean, about the importance of local communities and achieving very tangible benefits that are models to emulate. And so this is yes, the challenges are huge, but we've got solutions in hand and even more that could be created, but we need to not give up, because these are these are opportunities to be in charge of and to affect the future that will affect all of us, obviously, And our kids and grandkids. But it's not hopeless. There is a huge map that is underway, and this is the time to not give up and shrug, but to actually work together, with non-traditional partnerships and traditional partnerships, everything. Work together. Use science and create a better world.

Kimberly Kenny  25:03

Dr, Jane Lubchenco, thank you very much for your time.

Dr. Jane Lubchenco  25:06

My pleasure. Thank you Kim.

Kimberly Kenny  25:10

And that's our episode for this week. Thank you to the honorable Dr Jane Lubchenco for this conversation, and also to her team and the team at the Hatfield Marine Science Center for making it possible to have this conversation just before her public presentation. You can check out that presentation for free online at the Hatfield Marine Science Center website at hmsc.oregonstate.edu and we'll also put a link to that talk in our show notes. Catch you next week, and as always, keep up the creative and constructive climate thought, conversation and action on climate change.

You've been listening to Climate Decoded. Climate Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Helled Davies-Jones, Isabelle Baudish, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens van del Hansen, Jamie Stark, Alex Teske and me, Kim Kenny. To read the transcript and see the resources we mentioned in the episode, check out the link in the show notes to keep up with the podcast. Follow us on all the socials. We're at climate underscore decoded on Instagram and climate decoded podcast on LinkedIn. Our team is based all around the world, and we pay respect to the diverse indigenous carers and custodians of the lands we record on and the lands where you listen. There is a vast and rich storytelling tradition that comes before us that we try to honor when sharing stories on this podcast to support our show, hit that follow button on your podcast platform of choice and drop us a rating or review. You can also donate to the podcast. Every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. You can find the link to donate in the show notes, and of course, if you loved this episode, we'd love for you to tell a friend about it, as sparking more conversations is what we're all about. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about, talking about and acting on climate change. Bye for now.

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