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CLIMATE CHAT: Loss & Damage and Youth Leadership with Ineza Umuhoza Grace and Kevin Mtai

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You're listening to Climate Decoded, the podcast that deciphers climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. We talk about how we talk about climate change. 

And Welcome to Climate Chats, a series in which we have casual conversations with the top climate experts, authors, and activists from around the world. 

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In this episode, I chat with Ineza Umuhoza Grace, an ecofeminist climate activist and environmentalist from Kigali Rwanda and Kevin Mtai, a co founder of the Kenya Environmental Action Network and communications coordinator at the loss and damage youth coalition, we had a lovely chat talking about youth activist work and a fair bit around the important topic of loss and damage. So without further ado, let's get right into the chat.

[Chat content below, transcribed from Otter so there are mistakes, previously edited by Alex but now needs a new intro:]

Kim: Ineza and Kevin, thank you so much for being on the call today. Could you please introduce yourselves and say maybe a little bit about your environmental ID, or that is how you relate to your natural environment? How you came to know the climate.

Ineza: I can start. My name is Ineza Umuhoza Grace, but I like to go by Ineza, because that is the name that was given to me by my mom, and I kind of felt like I like it so much I'm in the climate space. And I'm based in Rwanda most of the time. That's my home. That's where I belong. But I am. My identity as a climate will be as an ecofeminist, because I am a believer that whatever harm that we did to our planet, we are able to restore and breathe it in a better way. So that's the part of the ecosystem one. And then the feminist part is to ensure that more than ever, women are going to be having the central will and the opportunity to be part of the decision making process. And this should be reflected on the national, local, international and international level. And by say, also women also say, like everyone, so children, young people, should be active stakeholders of this process of creating tangible hope for our planet and the people. And I love music and food. And with that combo, let's get a full personality of my, of me, thanks, and then I can pass on to my colleague, Kevin.

Kevin: Okay, thank you very much. My name is Kevin Mtai, and I'm the coordinator communication at LDYC, so I think for me, I can maybe relate on I started this field at the time I was still in high school, where I was able to come up with environmental club. The time I was joining medical school, I I tried to learn more about environment through watching documentary and also through through watching a couple of role model like in care, like Wangari madhai. That's the time I was able to join this field fully. The time I completed my medical school, I joined it only to Yeah, to advocate and also try to push for a better planet. Yeah. Back to you Kimberly.

Kim: Thanks very much. Was there just a quick follow up question on that, was there a particular place where you both grew up that you felt I related to your natural environment when you were growing up? Did you go to a lake somewhere, for example, or run around in the backyard. Was there a moment that you felt you related to your natural world?

Ineza: Yes, maybe I can start, yeah, living in a in a rural area, in a countryside where we have, like, one of the only rainforests in Kenya, Kakamega Forest, so I grew up going to that forest. That is the time I was able to create the that relationship between me and nature I passed to you. Thank you so much. I think for me, it's that I grew up in the Peru urban area in Kigali, and, you know, it was kind of, I don't know how to say, like, sometimes you feel like you are protected from a certain environmental issue because you're living in, you know, in the city, like, you know, where everything is possible. But I think it was, I was at the age of, I think five. I think five much more lower, um, low in the house ceiling of where used to be our family home, the ceiling got destroyed because of intensive rainfall and wind. That that kind of a moment really made me realize I kind of forget about it, because, you know, like how our main is, our mind is when you have lived a traumatic event, you. You don't, kind of get a rest. So until I grew up, like, like a normal child, like a normal girl in the in the city, like no caring about the planet, I'll be honest. I know I love, I loved three so much, like I can go to forest or, like I can try to go to the park with the family, that kind of nature as such, but I didn't feel like that needs to protect the nature. Until after high school, I was watching the news. There was a particular community in my country that was forced to move because of the flooding and return that was happening in that area. And then seeing the image on the television, you know, and on the television was children and women who are being forced more. And that automatically clicked my personal experience of of being working up in the middle of the night by my mom and I was kind of feeling, I remember, I kind of remembered how to feel like powerless and not knowing that you're going to be able to make it, and I couldn't afford, like, not having emotion to see that other children and the young people and women are feeling that same fear in that after so many years as this way, I shifted my dream of going to fly big plane, and I was Like, I'm going to do something that is going to help me understand, why is the nature responding the way it is today? I didn't know it was climate change at that time, it was like, the nature is just responding that way. So what is happening? So for me was like, much more of a disaster. I changed, and that did my highest my university in Rwanda, and then through reading and through getting exposed to different aspects of of the environment, and that's when I learned about climate change. And was my biggest surprise to learn that my country, which is wishes among other countries that did less to the contribution of the greenhouse gas emission that is causing this effect of climate change, are the one who are paying a lot, and for me, that was the injustice, and also seeing that most of the time in this process of funding solution, women and children and young people are not where to be found. So I just draw back to learn from my country experience of active youth participation, active women consideration and engagement. And kind of wanted to engage much more young people international level. So that's where all the videos started, having a support being my my three sister and two brothers. They were the first people who believed in whatever was trying to do in that time.

Kim: Beautiful answer. Thank you so much. It sounds like the issue of climate change, not named as such, was lying dormant in you from a young, very young age, from this experience and was reignited later in life. Thank you. It kind of leads us into the Loss and Damage Youth Coalition. The next question is about just talking about this organization that you co-founded, and I know that's not the only group that you're a part of, so feel free to talk about the green protector or other work that both of you do. But could you please tell me a little bit about the coalition and hear a bit about what kind of work you do within the coalition. I know Kevin you said you do communication work.

Ineza: Maybe I can start on that one, and then maybe Kevin. So the Coalition is a group of young people who sit together. I think it was after COP25 in Madrid, when, more than ever, we kind of felt like the issue of climate change impact was the biggest injustice of our generation. And because the issue of climate change impact has been neglected for a long time now, it came to a place that it was interlinked with so many factors that are really pressing us to not be able to have a dream of a future, or because it was, it was like when you just you, when you we were exchanging with the other people, other young people, because we're in a group of young people from the developed country and young people from the developing country, but what came sense to us was that for some of us, we want to protect our today, because yesterday, we know how it was really not that safe for us. But then from the other side, they just want to protect their future, because they are much more safer today. So after understanding that we might be coming from a different perspective and different exposure to the climate crisis, but yet it's important for us to stay together as one, and then we breathe the global solidarity around climate justice. So I think that's where we started. Our aim was to our message was just simple. I was to really demand the loss and damage. Finance now, which is like the name of our campaign, like we wanted to see, the establishment of the fund, is able to help countries be able to address and respond to the negative impact of the climate crisis and economic impact on an economic impact and wanting to be shaped in the manner where developing countries are the ones who are leading the way. I mean in terms of getting action on the ground. And we didn't want to see any form of past mistake which rely in all the, you know, lying policies paper or, like, fake promises that the word been giving to the people since, I think, the beginning of the climate crisis, in a sense, I wanted to see much more tangible hope. So that's where we embarked in a journey of, for example, sending open demand for to the CO presidency, and our demands are available, and then we could sign everyone can sign them. So we that's how we started. And then the the coalition grew, grew to have working groups. Now we have five working groups all led by young people. Group of young people who are committed to not only blame the system, but also be part of the solution by showcasing how things should be done. So we have a research working group, I mean, to create a tangible policy paper, or brief paper from a youth perspective and communicating on our needs, on the global on a global level, we have the training working group that is ensuring, or like enhancing, the ability of young people to understand the climate politics nonsense and how they can behold leaders accountable on their national level, but also international level. We have the advocacy which is helping us to increase our campaign, for example, but also sending open letter. We also have young people who are inside the negotiation process to I mean, like young people are part of their country, and they're able to negotiate within the university process. And then we have the communication Working Group, which is helping us to hold the message as as much as possible, because our collection is now currently more than 1000 young people for more than anti country. They have different that we have think different languages, that we have to ensure that members are able to receive our message. So the communication Working Group help us and amplify, amplification of our message on different platforms.

Ineza: And you have the Storytelling Working Group, which is really helping us to reshare and share frontline human lived experience of the climate crisis, people understand that it's real. It's not something that is, you know, it's not fiction. It's not something that's coming from a studio. It's something that people are actually living. So we are encouraging like holding a platform where people can share their story, their lived experience, so that people can still understand that even though you might be in a country where you don't experience a cyclone or a Typhon, you don't need to be like it's it doesn't exist at all, because we are actually leaving it. We have the colleagues, for example, in the Philippines, who are constantly in panic mode because of typhoon and cyclone, and just because you don't, you don't see it, you just do. You cannot deny it. You just have to believe. Because at the end of each of us, I think we are all connected as human. And then last but not least, we have also what we call a council, a loss and damage youth grant making Council, one of our demand when we started, was to see the establishment of a youth advisory board on the finance for loss and damage to ensure that young people are able to have a central role in, you know, not saying that, Oh, this action that Kevin is going to be doing Kenya actually, really is a inaction to address loss and damage and then empowering that young people are able to access the finance that they need to take action on reducing loss and damage in their own national circumstance. So we, I think that's two years we have one of our funder who help us to establish the first ever loss and damages granted making Council, which meant by 11 young people. And then I can stop there, and then Kevin can add.

Kevin (laughing): I think you have mentioned all things things, yeah, that's why I usually fear going after you.

Kim (laughing): She's a tough act to follow.

Ineza (laughing): I will not go first for the other question, I'm talkative.

Kevin: In our communication working group, we usually coordinate with the with Chikuma, and what we have been trying to do is try to put more information about LBC and also other any issue related to loss and damage into our. Social media. In most we have like pages. We have Instagram page, Twitter and LinkedIn, which we have been trying maybe to see. How can you make sure that we have been able to share out this story and also any information about loss and damage around the world? And I remember very well, in the past cop, two cops, we have been able to run the story, where we have been able to capture around people who have been coming to cop to share their story and posting our social media, and also in our in the YouTube mineral, do I see YouTube, which story I've been able to run in different platform. And as I can mention about we shall have a weekly call with different, different LDYC member who are able to join the group. Just try to capture and that just try to form arise on what we are we are running in in NYC, that's I think I can mention, yeah, maybe I can mention this more about the organization, which, in as I've said, yeah, the organization is known as heavy Environmental Action Network. It based in Kenya, but you're able to register it, and last week, you are able to receive the Certificate of Registration, and usually run it with my friend Kalu ki Paul. So we started it like four years ago. And most of the time you just try to reach and also try to uplift this upcoming young activists who are based in rural area to share their story and also to cover what they are doing, because you have been able to see that a lot of organization, maybe they are not trying to uplift this. So that's what we have been trying to do in my my own organization. 

Kim: Yeah, thank you. Wanted to congratulate you, Ineza and both of you on knowing your messages, being able to quickly deliver them and talk about the coalition. It seems like you've done this type of interview or interaction in similar places, and you've obviously been on the platform on a global stage for a few years now. So I'm wondering what effective communication techniques you have developed for yourself over the years before even you know starting these but then, as you've learned along the way, in your organization work, how to effectively communicate about climate change, what have you found has worked really well for you?

Kevin: Okay, so the technique which you have been trying to to use, yeah, and knowing that LASC is a collision, we have been trying to reach out to different people, not only maybe in Africa, but also around the world, touching their story. Because when, when you can tell someone, maybe from South America, to share their story. The people from South America can try to join, or try to see which organization this LD was here. How can we join? So that maybe that's the method we have been trying to use, especially the time initially attend COVID, try to record and also share their story of their specific country. And this, it has been able to attract more more youth and more people try to join the so I just want to say that in short, here, maybe I'll pass to Ineza. 

Ineza: Thanks, Kevin. I think for me, I over the years, what I found like to be something that might work because, again, it's a my work. It might because it's still, it's still something not sure how to is to keep the authenticity and ensuring that when you are sharing a story. You are not sharing it as a third party. You are just allowing the first source to be the one saying the story, or, like, demanding the change. Because in that way you you help. I think my mind, I think that way you help people be having all the information they need that is untapped, and they're able to craft what is, what is true and what is false, and what's real and what is tangible. Because for, I think for quite some years, a lot of time, we've been assuming that some people voices or some community expertise are, you know, somewhere to be found, maybe in the UN report, or, I don't know, somewhere in the in the annex thingy. I would also call them this, this thing that I don't like to use whenever there's a community knowledge that is on the ground they they call it like indigenous for example, like that kind of language, because. They don't want to give special attribution or like recognition, or even affirmation that is something that is actually valuable, that should be centered at the decision. So I think the fact that like the reinforcement of the autisticity of how people are sharing their their story, their demand reality, and helping them to know how they can frame the demand in the way they want, not in the way that some people think they need, like in the way they need. So that's why everything that is driven by the people, by developing countries, or like the, you know, frontline communities that actually are able to have hope, instead of something that is driven by, you know, third parties, in a sense, but then, because communication, especially in this era, is critical, because you don't even know how to trust what you see on Instagram. I have three sisters, so sometime you're like, what? How can you ensure that you're able to have a social content that is able to be authentic and be able to be proved in a sense. So the way, the way I found it to work, is to also ensure and understanding that even the from from the storyteller to the how the story is captured, to how it's going to be communicated, and how it's going to be delivered to the to the global leader. They it just have to be owned by those people, like owned by those who are giving the message. So that's why emphasizing, for example, working with the graceful communication agencies, Grace like a developing country, or like a global young people who are actually negotiators, who are able to understand the issue in their own perspective and then communicate what needs to be changed, and then who are able to hold meeting with the global leaders, I think that is where you are able to have a full circle of authenticity, which is the one thing that was not there for quite some time. And I think when people are able to know that what they're reading or what they're seeing is not something that is fake. It's not artificial intelligence. It's, I'm not against artificial intelligence, but it's not something that is, you know, from from someone's imagination, it's something that is, is real. Then they can, they get the sense to understand that actually things has to change, and then they're able to be connected with each other. Because for me, at least, no matter how the world can be bad, no matter how you know the news can you know can be very depressing, I just find reassurance in the understanding that we are all human. We are all connected. There's no way Kimberly in Oregon, she's going to be happy drinking her tea, or going to have friend party, knowing that in NASA, I'm no longer having a house to say because the cyclone heated me, or the flooding is no longer so, because at the end of the day, we are all human. We are all connected, and I feel like we find pleasure when we are, you know, acting together as one, rather than being an amazing way, that makes sense, I feel like I need coffee now.

Kim: That was fantastic. I'm inspired. Thank you. I know we have two minutes left, so just want to give you a chance to talk about anything that I didn't ask you about or plug any specific campaign or group work that you wish people knew more about. What do you want to get out there? More in the Yeah, among, among our audiences in your own words? 

Ineza: I think I'll be short on this one. I think what I can, I would like to share, is that, to anyone who is hearing, don't get fooled, because I know now the news is all about the loss and damage fund has been established, and we have, you know, the funding arrangement now, you know, like people are going to be, you know, taking responsibility around the climate crisis that they cause is fake news, in a way, because, in reality, yes, the fund is there, which is true that you cannot deny. But the modality of this fund is still not certain, to ensure that it's going to be new, additional, adequate, accessible finance, especially for developing country, and also a finance there is not going to be in any way increasing the depths challenges or the depths crisis for developing country who did less to cause the climate crisis impact. But then there we have been. I mean, we all have been paying through the course of our GDP, the cost of development, because, for example, in reality, is like a country like mine, you can take a loan from the World Bank to construct a boat, or like a hospital, because you have to meet the SDG targets, but then the road is going to be destroyed in just three nights. Rain, and then the country is not going to be able to have an immediate response finance that is going to to help the country be able to rebreathe faster, those hospital, those schools, even those roads, and because the amount that was used was on the run, and then the country is going to go additional loans. So that's why, for the finance that has to be for loss and damage, we just need to be creative in understanding others perspective and ensuring that we're able to offer a solution that is adequate for all. And yeah, money is there. It's not like the money is going to come from, from Sarah, because people need to, you know, invest in the right way. It's not like we we want them to, you know, create more money in much more it's much more like, can you channel it the better way? And the better way have can be channeled by the guidance of developing country who've been leading these issues for a long time, and they actually have the tools on how it has to do. So that's why I think the biggest jump is to let the world's trust developing country on this one.

Kim: Fantastic. Thank you, Kevin, anything to add? 

Kevin: think I don't have anything to add, but to say thank you very much for the call. Yeah, I really appreciate, I think now I have a new one friend with us, Kimberly.

Kim: Yeah, please come to Oregon. If you're ever on the West Coast of the US. And thank you so much both for your time. I know it went pretty quickly, but I really appreciate you taking the time.

[End of chat content]

And that’s it for this week. Catch you next week, and as always, keep up the creative and constructive climate thought, conversation, and action. 

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You’ve been listening to Climate Decoded. Climated Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Heledd Davies-Jones, Isabel Baudish, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens Wendel-Hansen, Jamie Stark, Alex Teske, and me, Kim Kenny.

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