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CLIMATE CHAT: Emma Pattee on climate communication through writing, from journalism to fiction

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Welcome to Climate Decoded, the podcast that deciphers climate change communication. We untangle how different narratives illuminate or obscure pathways to climate justice. Our mission is to improve climate media literacy, foster meaningful climate conversations, and spur informed, just action on climate change.

And Welcome to Climate Chats, a series in which we speak to experts, authors, and activists from around the world. These Chats are more unscripted and casual than other episodes like our climate reviews and deep dives. If you like this episode, we’d love if you would share it with a friend, so we can spark more thought, conversation, and action on climate change. Let’s dive in.

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Hey Climate Decoders, welcome to our first episode of Season 3! Today, I’m chatting with climate journalist and writer Emma Pattee. This episode is very timely, because her debut novel, “Tilt,” is being published tomorrow! Fun fact: Did you know that all books in the United States are published on Tuesdays? Apparently it allows sellers to stock up on Mondays, and then for a full week of run time before the weekend. But I digress, let me read you the flap copy of “Tilt”:

Annie is nine months pregnant and shopping for a crib at IKEA when a massive earthquake hits Portland, Oregon. With no way to reach her husband, no phone or money, and a city left in chaos, there’s nothing to do but walk.

Making her way across the wreckage of Portland, Annie experiences human desperation and kindness: strangers offering help, a riot at a grocery store, and an unlikely friendship with a young mother. As she walks, Annie reflects on her struggling marriage, her disappointing career, and her anxiety about having a baby. If she can just make it home, she’s determined to change her life.

A propulsive debut, Tilt is a primal scream of a novel about the disappointments and desires we all carry, and what each of us will do for the people we love.

You can check out the link in our show notes to buy your copy from your local bookstore.

I met up with Emma for this Climate Chat in a recording studio in Portland, Oregon, where Emma lives. I had so much fun talking to her about climate communication and writing in its different forms, from journalism to fiction.

Her Substack is called Just One More Question and you can find out more on her website at emmapattee.com.

Without further ado, let's get into the chat.

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Kim: Emma, thank you so much for being willing to talk with us. I'm so excited to talk to you and have you here today.

Emma Pattee: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Kim:

So we'll just dive right into the questions. You are a climate journalist and an author, soon to be published author, and I wanted to ask about your writing heritage, where you come from, before we dig into your present writing. So in one of your Medium articles, you write about being on maternity leave, and you mentioned that your mother was a journalist and your grandmother was a writer as well. Are there things from their writing or work styles that you've taken into your own work. Did they ever write about climate related issues?

Emma:

You know, it's so interesting that a person could live, you know, a full life and not ever think or write about climate issues. But I think truly like that is, was their experience more and it's, it's interesting to me now, because I can't imagine writing about the world and not writing about that, right, but something that I you know, my mother was a journalist, and my grandmother also was a journalist, and I think that curiosity is a very like genetic trait in our family is a learned trait in our family. And you know, my family also lived all over the world and and you know, my grandmother's father was a foreign diplomat, and my grandfather was a naval officer, and so, you know, I think that kind of exposure to a lot of different ways of living or being really helped me when I'm, you know, growing up, it really helped me understand that sometimes the status quo you're introduced to is just one way of living, where I think a lot of people enter into the way we live right now as the only, the only way there is of living. And I do think that, because my mother grew up that way, that's part of the reason why, you know, my parents left at the time California and the tech boom, and they bought a piece of land, they built a wood cabin. We lived in a tent. We didn't have electricity for a while. We didn't have running water. Like my parents sort of walked away from that lifestyle more. And I think in a lot of ways, it's because my mother grew up seeing so many alternatives to "normal life". And I think that experience for me, growing up in the woods, very connected with nature and very disconnected from culture, has helped me be able to really bear witness to what's happening right now with the climate crisis.

Kimb:

What did they write about?

Emma:

You know, my mom, they both were like travel and lifestyle writers, and my grandmother, you know, worked for the Washington Post. This was like back in the 40s, 50s journalism as a woman, and I think she must have been like the coffee girl, and was maybe allowed to sometimes pen an article. She worked a little bit for like Radio Europe, and my mother was a lifestyle journalist for years and years and years all over the country, and my father was a journalist too. And it's interesting because they both left journalism to have kids, and they both were told they had to leave journalism by their bosses. And so my grandmother, it wasn't even a question. She got pregnant, and her job was gone. And then my mother got pregnant, and she and another pregnant journalist said, 'Is there any way we could take a full time job and split it, and we'll split the job. We'll each take half, you know, we'll split the salary, we'll split the job, and together we'll do. And it won't, won't be any negative to you, but it would means we can both work part time.' And the editor said no, and my mom stopped working as a journalist. And so I think, yeah, you know, it helps me sometimes, and I think it can help all of us when we're thinking about the past and the outrage of like, how we knew so much about climate change, how did you not all care, right, that so many other issues were happening. Like everyone exists in the context of their lives. I don't look back and think, Why didn't my mother, in the 80s, you know, living in San Antonio, Texas, write about climate change, you know, she wasn't aware of it. She was experiencing so many other injustices and challenges and just the system in general shaping her life.

Kim:

Yeah. In a way, it's kind of an immense privilege to be able to have the head space and the time to think deeply about climate change. There's so many other things in life that people need to take care of, and to just focus on climate change as its own issue - I mean, I think it's all encompassing into other issues - but it is a point of privilege. I imagine they're very proud of you taking writing forward, and you have your own kids now, and you didn't need to quit writing altogether to continue building your family. And -

Emma:

I just want to jump in quickly on what you said about about the privilege. Yeah, I think that's a really, really astute point. And I think that it's something that oftentimes in the climate space, we forget, or it's like, this is the issue of our times. How can you think about anything else? And I do think that is true. And is true, and I'm not, and would never disagree with that, but that I think even to briefly think about climate change is a privilege. I think that people have so much to think about. And I do, yeah, I think it's just a very astute point that it's, it's has helped me so much be kind of the person in my friend group, the person in my family who cares about climate change, the climate you know, the climate crier go to the group, yeah? And which is not a desirable role, it's not the popular one, right? But it's so much to come back to the sort of understanding, the amount that people are thinking about, and that when I am also in a space of outrage, or when I'm in a space of outrage around someone else's decisions, or larger cultural sort of apathy that I can re anchor into, yeah, what a privilege it is to even have 20 minutes to think about climate change every day, right?

Kim:

Yeah. I'd love to dig into your actual writing now and the communication techniques and tools that you've used for writing about climate change in particular.

Emma:

Yeah. I mean, that is the question of the, I was going to say, of the moment, but it's, it's bigger than that. Clearly, is like the question of the last decade and among environmental journalists, which it's like, how do you make people care about this? And man, I feel like I've tried many different ways. I think I've tried to to scare people. I've tried to write about the psychology of it, because I figured people were more interested in the psychology of it. I tried to write about the parenting aspect of it, because I thought, well, people are really interested in that. People care a lot, you know, people so worried about their kids futures. And for me, I think after "Don't Look Up" came out and, and that movie that was sort of like a, I don't want to say parody, analogy, a fable about climate change. Have you seen it?

Kim:

No, I've seen the trailer. I'm familiar with the general concept. I haven't seen it.

Emma:

It was so good, it was so good, it was so funny, it was so good, it made a splash and it just did nothing. And he's spoken about that sense, it really did nothing, and all those -

Kim:

Leonardo Di Caprio?

Emma:

And, like, I had, you know, Leonardo Caprio has, I don't know. Maybe he has spoken about, I don't know, but I'm talking more about the director. And I think his name is Adam, and it'll come to me, yeah. But he, because he still does a ton of climate communication, he has a really cool Instagram called We Are Yellow Dot. Like, it's, yeah, clearly, this man is dedicated to raising awareness around climate change, and he's so skilled at it in a way that I could only dream to be, and it doesn't make a difference. And I think that point I have, I have started to ask myself, like, what is the purpose of communicating this more effectively? Yeah, do I need to be do we need I asked myself, this a lot, you do we need more? You know, climate noise? And I think the answer is no. You know, I recently interviewed a scientist who essentially said, We know everything we need to know about climate change. We don't really need to talk a lot more about it in a sort ofamongst civilians - a lot of people are on the same page. A lot of people are ready to vote on it, like everyone kind of gets it. There's just really, we don't need to, quote, unquote, necessarily, educate people anymore about climate change, right? And that's shifted a lot how I think about what my role might be in this moment.

Kim:

Yeah, now maybe it's more about action. And we even have the actions that we need to take. Like with Drawdown, all these solutions, but we're just not taking them.

Emma:

Absolutely, totally and I mean, I think this is a time where we are seeing this happen on a, in a really different stage with what's happening in Gaza, that, you know, we're seeing a situation that is so clearly wrong, so clearly needs to stop. And yet, none of, and we all were, you know, we're sitting here saying that this is wrong. This has to stop. You know, we have to have a ceasefire. And yet, there's not a lot any one of us could do on any given day. Yeah, and, you know, people say vote, and people say vote about climate change. And I, I don't know that, you know, I, yeah, I definitely vote, but there is a political gridlock that is much larger than a Democrat, Republican issue. And, yeah, I don't. I don't want to sound helpless, but I want to be realistic. It is not clear to me what would need to happen to have the change that we need.

Kim:

Yeah. It makes me think of this Venn diagram concept that I remember listening to called How to Save a Planet, this podcast that's now stopped, I think, but they talk about what you can contribute, what you can do, what the world needs, and what's like, sustainable for you, and what you're good at. So like, everyone can have something that they can contribute to this fight, and that makes me feel more hopeful when I have action. So there's a place for writing, there's a place for news articles, but political action is definitely a big piece of that. Anyway, you've done many forms of writing. Well, many forms of writing you've done a lot of writing, have you found that the techniques and tools that you've used for climate specific writing are any different from any other form of writing you've talked about, you know, the scare tactics that you've thought about, the more hopeful the psychology thinking about the next generation. Have you found any difference, maybe even in your head space when you're doing the actual writing?

Emma:

I think that is a really interesting question. So much of my writing comes from curiosity, and I have, I'm sure there must be a word for, well, I guess the word is obsession. It's like, what's the negative version of curiosity? Some sort of, always too much of something. You know, I was telling you how I stand on the beach and, you know, imagine the tsunami and imagine, you know, which, which kid I'm gonna save. And so definitely, obsession is the seed of all of my writing, non fiction, journalism and fiction, and trying to understand things that are hard to wrap your mind around quickly, that are hard to kind of get a hold of. And so I think technique wise, something - this relates to what we're talking about with privilege. I try to have a lot of you know, when I'm writing, I'm writing from my obsession, when I'm editing and when I'm trying to publish or pitch, I'm thinking about with respect for the reader.reader. And that has felt really important to me. I think a lot of, I see a lot of writers do just respect for the reader, like, what's going to sell? What do people want to read? I'm going to write it. What should I pitch? You know, five skincare products to buy tomorrow. Okay? Like they're really interested in what's going to what readers are looking for. And then there's another section of writer that is just coming from obsession and the idea that you would enter, or allow a reader to shape that, is blasphemy. And I think there can be a really nice mix of the two. And for me, very much like, what am I adding? Am I adding some to a conversation that I care about? And sort of, what am I adding? Yeah, and that can help me look at my own biases around class and race and and, you know, climate privilege and it can sort of, am I adding what I want to add to this conversation? And am I respecting the reader's time? And, yeah, to also avoid just constant scare tactics, am I respecting sort of, their emotional space? Yeah, because you can step back from, like the from news, and I think also from publishing, and you can see that, you know, these people are paid on clicks, and they need to find media and articles that generate clicks. And of course, it's way more nuanced than that, and there's way more to it. And there's tons of amazing journalism happening, and amazing editors who go against the grain, yes, yes, yes. You can. The system itself is that to stay alive and functioning, The New York Times needs clicks so they can sell ads, and their ad board weighs in on some of the articles that get that get commissioned, and because they need the clicks to have the ads, to make the money to pay the people the right stuff to get the clicks. And like, when you see that as the system. I think, yeah, I think it's fruitful to ask, where do I fit into this am I adding? Am I adding value? Yeah, and is the value only to my bank account or or is the value in a different way? Right? Can I sneak into this cycle? A question I'm often asking is, can I sneak into this cycle where I'm adding value, but I'm getting but I'm still getting clicks? But I would also say that many i for a while, I kept a running log of this many times I read my own articles, and then next to it is like Rolex now introducing the green collection. There's like, a doll greenwashing. It's like rebuilding the reef. And I'm like, Oh, I wrote this article. My article is actually just the wrapping paper around all this green washing ads and that. And they've, these companies have made these green commitments part of which, I guess it's like advertising, like all so much of those green commitments are just bullshit, yeah? So they like, have these budgets they have to spend. They have to be green, and the New York Times has to place that on a story that it aligns with. And so they're like, give me some green.

Kim:

Someone plaster it with dolphins.

Emma:

Nothing against all right? And then in those moments, I question the value that I'm adding, but you know, yeah, you have to keep your mind open to the reality of this moment.

Kim:

I love that pragmatic approach. Could you give a quick rundown, overview of the types of writing that you've done? I know you send out newsletters. You do book writing. What kind of writing do you do?

Emma:

So, I mean, I'm a climate journalist. I've been working as a journalist for a while, and then specifically working just in the climate space for quite a few years. And then I began writing a novel that came out of an obsession about the Cascadia earthquake, which is going to happen here in the Pacific Northwest, and and then I sold that novel. It's coming out next year with Simon and Schuster.

Kim:

Congratulations.

Emma:

Thank you. And and so my work has shifted a little bit, and I think it is sort of where the novel came from, a little bit from that space that I have the "Don't Look Up" inspiration, like, gosh, can I engage people, you know, a little bit more. I had this kind of pivotal moment where I was interviewing this 20 year old on TikTok, and he had made this TikTok video that was like, Guys, I think he was maybe crying, guys, the planet's burning, the planet's ending. It's so fucked up. And like, that was the whole video, and it was like seven seconds, and he's just like, We gotta do something. The planet's ending. And I wrote this article about him and about people who talk about climate change on TikTok, And I realized, after the article went live, it was on Wired. I asked the editor, how many people are gonna view this, that you would consider it a success? He said, you know, 10,000 or 20,000. And this 20 year old had like, 17 million views on this video, and I just had this sort of moment of, like, what am I doing with my life? I could do a seven second video. And I can't do that and maintain my sanity and dignity. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna write a novel. And I've been writing fiction for a long time. And so I that was, that was sort of the impulse, but it came from obsession. And then, and then I sort of tried to bring in respect for the reader and so right now, you know, I think for me, I am really sitting with how much of my time do I want to spend writing about climate change? What impact does that have? How much of my time do I want to spend writing fiction? What impact does that have? You know, what impact does art have? That's something I've written about for Lit Hub. You know, that's a really big question. And, you know, I for that article, I interviewed Anthony Doerr, and he won a Pulitzer for his book, and we started talking about climate fiction. And, yeah, and he made such a compelling argument about the importance of writing about this stuff and writing about it in fiction and putting it into stories. And I think there's just a philosophical question of, like, how I am going to spend my time? And we should all be asking ourselves that, especially those of us in, like, the arts and communication space, because that's like, how you spend your time is, sort of becomes, sort of the sum of you, right, your impact.

Kim:

I need that plastered on a wall somewhere when I'm worried about sending an email or thinking too long about a detailed thing that really doesn't matter.

Emma:

Definitely.

Kim:

You wrote about how you wrote a lot of your book while doing a voice transcription while you're going for walks. Can you speak a little bit about the creative space that you got into for writing climate fiction?

Emma:

Yeah, for sure. So my, my book is not really, would not really be considered climate fiction only because earthquakes, you know, as you know, are not connected to climate change. And so, they're kind of the one natural perhaps I should have picked a natural disaster that is more climate adjacent. But no, earthquakes are not that. And so it's, you know, it's really more about consumption and consumerism, and just like the intense current of culture and how hard it is to step out of that and change your life, which I think is very much about climate change, but maybe not in the ways people expect from climate fiction. And it's also about what happens when society starts to break down, and about the choices we make, and about the ways in which I think we come together in unexpected ways. But you know, I think that when I am writing, whether it is client, climate journalism or whether it's fiction, I use a variety of techniques. I hand write at this point almost everything, really. And so I did a lot of my initial draft, I did walking my kid during COVID, and then I ended up throwing that all the way, and handwriting the draft. And now I use handwriting. I think it like it's very interesting. And for those of you who are like writers and journalists, I would highly recommend coming up with sort of like taking a small story or a small piece and telling it three ways, handwriting it, typing it up and then dictating it. You will come up with three different things that together make something really rich. And so I think, you know, I that that when we talk out loud, we can free associate. When we write, oftentimes handwrite, it oftentimes gives our brain time to catch up, especially if you're a fast typer, yeah. So it can help, you know, oftentimes I'm just typing faster than I can even think, and I end up with a lot of noise or kind of talking myself in circles. And when you're handwriting, it slows down your brain. It slows the whole process down. And oftentimes you can get to something a lot truer and a lot richer. And so yeah, I do use all of those techniques, and I think something more specific to writing about climate change or other, you know, ethical topics, difficult, yeah, totally. And anything kind of counter culture is that it really helps to create spaciousness for some of your more radical ideas, or subversive ideas to come out. And I think that's sort of how I got to this. My the concept that I, that I talk about, of a climate shadow that, like, I had to create some space to be like, but wait, I think there's, I think there's more here, and, and, I think, to not allow people into the room too soon, because, unless those are people that truly can meet you in that subversive space, they are going to try to pull you back to the the norm, or what is more culturally acceptable. You know, when it comes to, you know, if I'm like, well, the only sane thing to do right now would be to, you know, chain yourself to an oil drill or, or whatever, you know, or commit some, some wild act of eco terrorism, which potentially might be the only sane thing to do right now. Like, I'm not, I'm not even arguing that point. But if I say that, and I see that to someone who's more in the mainstream, they're gonna be like, What are you doing that's wild. Don't say that. And I think when, I guess, to say it simply, when the culture is insane, then the sane people have to make space for their sanity to emerge unscathed, because if that sanity is gonna look like insanity because the culture itself is insane.

Kim:

Woof inception. I love the layers upon layers. Thank you for bringing up climate shadow. I want to ask about your coining of that term. Could you speak a little bit about what climate shadow means?

Emma:

Sure, yeah. You know you and I were talking about this a little bit earlier, that there's just this incredible tension between individual action and and corporate responsibility, or societal maybe, yeah, like, governmental responsibility, political responsibility, corporate responsibility, you know, larger organizations. Yeah. And I think everybody just wants such a quick answer to it, to that question. And I think I'm trying to this, of course, started with an obsession, the obsession I came to there are, and I'm not even sure I'm gonna be able to remember, this was years ago, but it was something about like the International that that nobody knows who should be accountable for the products that that we buy, that Americans buy in, for example, Americans buy in that are made in China. Who is responsible for those emissions? And also that when emissions happen in international waters, we don't know what country to assign them to, right? And it was just so interesting to think about that, this sort of weird, political, scientific thought process or question, and then think about that in a personal sense, that it's like, who is there? Gosh, there's so much gray area, and there's so much great area to our accountability and to our and to our impact. And then I started thinking about Greta Thunberg, and you know, I was, I was thinking so so much about, um, if she had just, like, decided to be vegan. If you Google like, how to help climate change, you will find that you should grow a garden, go vegan, have fewer children, fly less. And, I mean, I wrote that article so I'm not trying to. And also, like, that's what you get hired to write so much, like, five ways to blah, blah, blah, and, and those are all, like, good those are good things, good activities. But like, what if Greta Thunberg had done that? What if Greta Thunberg was like, Yeah, okay, I'm gonna be vegan and I'm not gonna fly anymore. And like, I mean, she's changed the world. I read this statistic last week that's like, over 70% of Germans have said that Greta Thunberg has has impacted their views on climate change. And like, don't, I'll find the source for that. Yeah, but, you know, like, but it was an enormous number. I mean, she has truly changed the world, and that her carbon footprint is probably not so much different than yours or mine. You know, I don't fly much, I don't I don't eat meat. You don't have kids, you know, yet, but okay, we'll count it now. And so, like it's, it really started to make me think that that we should never assign someone's impact there to their carbon footprint, and that we need a concept that is bigger, that is more philosophical. And part of the reason for this, I can kind of give you two anecdotes, and one is that when we talk about the contagion of talking about climate change, the contagion of climate action is enormous, and we often underestimate it. So like, if you drive an EV your neighbors are so much more likely to get EVs if you, if you their studies been done that if you install solar panels, you're not only your neighbors, but your entire neighborhood is more likely to get solar panels and and you can think about that, and you can think about how that is obviously going to start to become this, like, incredibly substantial number to have this enormous impact, and this is true for talking about climate change, and so that, you know, I probably have had more impact talking about climate change in my family and friend circles, right, than I've had, you know, Giving up not eating meat, or even like having one less kid or not flying as much and so, but there's no way to calculate that, and so that, I think, is when I realized the carbon footprint not only was just inaccurate, not only told us only a tiny bit of the story, but was also keeping our gaze in the wrong direction.

Kim:

And intentionally so with the history of BP coining the term and totally this individual focus.

Emma:

Absolutely, and I think that there's this natural impulse that like that you want to calculate something right, that things that are but the problem is that when you assign so much value to a calculation, you only can, you only assign value to what can be calculated. Anything that cannot be calculated somehow disappears from the equation. And in this context, what cannot be calculated is actually what's most important. And so the idea of the climate shadow as this kind of philosophical thing we each carry that can that has no limit. There is no limit to the impact you can have on climate change, and there is no impact to the limit you could have negatively on climate change as well. And so the shadow works in both directions, right?

Kim:

Which I like shadow because it has kind of a darker connotation, but it can be, you know, you're what you've left behind you, and it's always shifting and moving with you in response to your environment.

Emma:

I get emails, and like, DMs, okay, but do I want my shadow to get bigger or smaller? Is that the point of the shadow? And then I'm like, just reread the piece. Like it's, it's spirituality. People ask me like, how do I calculate my shadow? And I'm like, no, no, reread the piece.

Kim:

In the interest of time, moving us forward of. So asking about privilege, I think I want to go for this question instead of the future generation, sorry, children, and then ask about work, promotion and tips for other writers. But we spoke with this kind of been a theme in our conversation so far, but writing about climate change from a position of privilege that we have, you and I have the opportunity to think deeply about these things. Do you have any reflections about writing about climate change from a position of relative privilege and safety, while considering that everyone, no matter where you are or your position will be and you're currently being affected by climate change, so not minimizing that. But do you have any reflections on that?

Emma:

Absolutely, yeah. I think that, in general, culturally, we talk about climate change as this kind of umbrella that is covering the earth. And it really, it's not that it is a, it is a, I wish I had a better analogy. Maybe I'll come up with -

Kim:

Another climate shadow.

Emma:

There we go. But it is truly a scale, you know, and they say, like, 1% of flyers, cause, you know, like more than half of all, emissions from flying. And it's like when you really look at climate change and emissions, you're talking about this tiny group of people having this, like, very outsized impact on this other enormous group of people like you cannot climate change. It's about inequality, and yeah, there is no way to enter into the discussion. And so it's almost, I have to almost think of it as two versions of climate change like you and I are sitting here. It's, you know, 70 something degrees out, like we have air conditioning in our cars. We have water to drink. We are living a relatively safe life. And so climate change for us is a theoretical. It's the threat of extinction, which is, of course, very important, but it's not entering into our day to day lives in a in a way that is that is impacting them, yeah, and, and people be like, Oh no, it is impacting me. It's like, so hot out and, like, it is impacting me. And that's real. I'm not trying to, like, it's, it's not not real. But like, comparatively, right? There's people, like, literally losing their homes, right? And and losing their livelihoods, and starving to death and dying in massive floods. And, like it's, it's not comparable. So there are people that are living with climate change and there are people that are thinking about climate change, yeah, and you and I are thinking about climate change. And though it's almost like you have to see those two things as being completely separate, yeah. And so, yeah, I think the whole, the whole question is, is really rooted in privilege, where I see this the most. The question I get asked the most via always late night email is, Will my kids die of climate change? How will my kid when? When will my kids die? Will they die? Should I have kids? Are they going to die from climate change? And it's, it's a really interesting question. I have a longer piece I'm working on about this that kind of actually breaks down, sort of the science of it, but also, like, the philosophy of it. But the short answer of that is that, like, likely, no. Like, where are you emailing me from? You know, if you know, if you found, if you had the time, late at night to find my email right, and read my piece, and there are times No, your kid is not gonna die from climate change. And right now there are kids dying of climate change, yeah. And so it's also like, it's this idea of, like, Would my kid die in the future, but, but this, but you're forgetting sight. You're losing, literally, children dying right now. And something I have experienced from having kids is that you, it is. The line between your kids and other kids both strengthens, because biologically, we're gonna always protect our kids over anyone else, including ourselves, and also blurs. Spiritually, it blurs, and the idea that there are children dying right now, and is becomes, feels much more urgent, becomes much more unbearable, like it's such a place of connection as a parent, where you are just like, viscerally aware of of what that would be like to experience. And so I think that really highlights sort of the dissonance we're having right now, around around climate, because it is both far off and immediate. And yeah, it is both, you know, not our kids, but it is. It is somebody's kid and it's somebody's kid right now, right? And how do you write that late night email and then not care about those kids? But also, you know, when you how do you not write that late night email? Because, of course, we all care so much about our kids, so I wouldn't say anyone is like, quote, unquote privileged to think about climate change, because I think it's a, I do think it's a cultural gift to spend your time. Days thinking it's a gift to the culture, it's a gift to other people. don't think it's like we're navel gazing with anxiety, right? And I think it's an act of courage to bear witness to what's happening. I know for myself, I would much rather write about, like cosmetics or there's so many other topics, right? So much rather right about and I'm sure, and I'm sure you as well, and, and so I think that there's a Yeah. I think that the inequity of climate change, we can't forget it, but, but it's the more we can understand these as, as, like, almost separate but inextricable issues, the more we can be in touch with the reality of the inequality.

Kim:

Yeah, climate justice is social justice, is every type of justice, and a more equitable world for all. Right, shall we jump into - Well, let's do tips and messages to other writers, since I think we're right on the cusp of our allotted time.

Emma:

What kind of a tip? I could go in too many directions. What kind of a tip do you want for other writers?

Kim:

I like the talk to your former self, kind of angle of, if you could have gone back and giving yourself lessons that you have learned now with the wisdom.

Emma:

Ok. Um, I think that if you're writing about climate or, like, we talked about anything subversive, um, again, what I said earlier about, like, the space, making the spaciousness to be subversive. If I could go back in time, so many of my more radical instincts were exactly spot on, and I just didn't have the courage to do it back then. And so it's taken me a long time to have to have more of a the confidence in -

Kim:

Can you give an example of that, like, tying yourself to a tanker kind of thing? Have you done that?

Emma:

I gotta go. I did tell him, I told my husband, like, the day these kids go to college, I'm going to a tanker, literally, like, I'm all in on eco terrorism. And like, Sorry, dude, enjoy the RV, yeah. Enjoy the EV. The EV RV. Yeah, I think that, like that not it's okay to hold something back. I don't mean like, publish your craziest thought or text it to all your friends, but like, it's okay to hold something back, but there's a difference between exploring something and publishing it. Yeah, and so like, yes, explore it. Explore your craziest, most counterculture, most subversive thoughts, most creative thoughts about how about solutions. And I think that if I could go back in time, I definitely, I definitely would say that and other tips and tricks for I think you know something, this is new. This was a new lesson that was given to me when I wrote that article for lithub about climate fiction. I was very much like, climate fiction is ridiculous. It doesn't work. This is just marketing and what almost I interviewed all of my most favorite hero writers, my favorite writers, and what almost all of them said to me is, like, we don't know, I guess they repeated climate shadow back to me. They said they don't know the impact of what we're doing, and we're not trying to solve climate change or, like, get people to care, or get people to not use plastic straws via reading our fiction books, we are trying to be part of a conversation. I think Omar El Akkad, who has American War, yeah, he has a book about Palestine that is going to be incredible. It's coming out in January. And he said to me, I'm yeah, I'm adding my voice to a conversation that is going to continue on, that's bouncing off of other books way in the past, and it's going to continue on way into the future. And I'm just like, part of the conversation, yeah. And I do think culturally, we have this idea that, like, I have to give my hot take, I need to copyright this. I need to own this idea. I'm going to say my thing.

Kim:

It's very North American as well, very Western culture.

Emma:

Yes very much, and like it was so profound for me to think it took so much responsibility off of me to be like, Oh, I can just, I am taking part in a conversation, part of a bigger Yeah, I'm part of a bigger thing. Karen Russell is an incredible environmental writer, and it's just like she imagined it like the roots of a tree. You know, we're all part of this, like root system, and together, we're telling something larger. So I think that too, if that either helps take the pressure off, or if that kind of lowers the bar somehow, to just be part of a conversation, not necessarily, you know, needing to deliver a Mic drop.

Kim:

Emma, thank you so much for your time and your head space and your work and for bearing witness to all of the important things happening in the world that you're bearing witness to right now. What work promotion would you like to put out there into the world, or things that you wish people asked you about more? What do you wish I had asked you?

Emma:

I have a SubStack, and it's called "Just One More Question," and I really wanted to take this approach of not answering questions, but asking questions, and also kind of giving behind the scenes. Of like, Yes, I wrote this article about this, but these are all the questions left unanswered or that I couldn't answer, or the answer was too sticky, or the editor didn't like the answer, you know, and so that this idea of of approaching something not as an expert, but but with curiosity. And so definitely, I would love for people to follow me there, but also to like, give me help me think about things that we can all collectively have questions about. And then my novel is coming out in March. It's called Tilt, and it's about a pregnant woman who is at IKEA shopping for a crib when a massive earthquake hits and she has to sort of make her way through the world.

Kim:

Dun, dun, dun. Well, thank you so much again for your time, and it's really been a pleasure talking to you.

Emma:

Thank you so much, Kim

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Kim:

You've been listening to Climate Decoded’s Climate Chats.

Climate Decoded is produced by Chantal Cough-Schulze, Lara Heledd Davies-Jones, Isabel Baudish, Greg Davies-Jones, Jens Wendel-Hansen, Jamie Stark, Alex Teske, and me, Kim Kenny. To read the transcript, learn more about today's guests and find other resources, check out the show notes. To keep up with the podcast, follow us at climate underscore decoded on Instagram and climate decoded podcast on LinkedIn. To support the show, please write us a review and recommend this episode to a friend. You can donate to the podcast on our Buy Me a Coffee page, which you can find in the show notes. Every little bit helps us bring you more climate content. Thanks for helping us get more people thinking about, talking about and acting on climate change until next time, take care of yourselves and keep up the good work.

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